Rupal Patel – CIA Spy to CEO

Rupal Patel is a born-and-bred New Yorker now living near London. Her high-octane career as a CIA officer turned 2x CEO has taken her from military briefing rooms in jungles and war zones to corporate boardrooms and international stages.

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About the host:

Bert Martinez is a successful entrepreneur and best-selling author. Bert is fascinated by business, marketing, and entrepreneurship. One of Bert’s favorite hobbies is to transform the complicated into simple-to-understand lessons so you can apply them to your business and life. Bert is also obsessed with exploring the mindset of the high achievers so you can follow their secrets and strategies.

Bert Martinez:

Former CIA agent, Rupal Patel. Today, stay tuned. For me, I’m sure a lot of people feel this way. You don’t realize how impactful, the job that the analysts do. Right? Especially especially female analysts. Right? Because when you think of the CIA, you think it’s a Yeah. It is a world it is a male dominated world for the most part.

And in your book and in some of your talks, you talk about you talk about you’re surrounded by all these alpha male navy seal type guys. You know? And I think, what was it, the movie zero dark thirty where you have Jessica? Is it Chastain? Chastain where where she literally is the person behind at least the way it’s portrayed, she’s the one who kinda connected all the dots.

And one of my favorite things that happens in that movie a couple of times, and and I wanna see what see if this happened to you is, a couple of times, there’s this thing where she wanted to say something and, of course, some of her colleagues and maybe some of her higher ups were saying, don’t say anything. Don’t say anything. Don’t say anything. And finally, she says, bam. This is what’s going on. I’m the one who found did you have that where where sometimes you were being told to not say anything, be quiet, play along?

Rupal Patel:

No.

I was really lucky and I do think there was an element of luck here, because when I was working on our Afghanistan account, I had pretty much nothing but exceptional leaders. So it was good because they sort of took the hit, or shielded us from that kind of politicization, from that kind of nonsense. So I can’t think of a single instance in which I was told to sort of hold back or to qualify anything.

Bert Martinez:

And one of the things that, that I like about your your story as far as identity and accepting your weirdness because we’re all weird and stuff like that It is that. It is that. We all have to people have to allow other people to put put out an idea. We make this big push, at least here in the US, for diversity. And what I find is sometimes, yes, we’re we’re meeting maybe the the minimum required requirement of diversity, but we’re still not accepting different ideas. We’re not being diverse when it comes to ideas and thoughts. And so I think that that’s still a thing that that do you have some thoughts on that?

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. No. And I think what’s so interesting funnily enough, I was having a conversation with a friend earlier today in which we were talking about a very, challenging CEO that she was the COO for. And we were talking about some of his extreme behaviors, you know, ridiculous things like picking favorites, having different criteria for others. Some person some people would get, you know, up to 3 months of of paid leave for medical emergencies.

Others will get 6 months because they were, you know, favorites of this and any anytime he was pulled up on this, he his response would be like, oh, well, you know, no one will find out. So if we’re inconsistent, it’s not a big deal. And some of this sort of, just make the rules up as you go mentality and also his very my way is the right way or the you know, it’s my way or the highway kind of thing.

And we were just chatting it through and and she said something so insightful and I think this is probably true in many cases, not all, but many cases. It’s like he was almost playing at what he thought a CEO should be like. Right? This this mythologizing of, like, CEOs are, like, literally fist thumping and shouty, aggressive, in your face. Again, my way or the highway, there’s no room for discussion, no room for, challenging views, etcetera, etcetera.

And, yes, the reality is there are human beings who are like that, but because there is so still this pervasive idea of the CEO of this as this, like, godlike untouchable figure, and this is purely in the media. Right? Like, this is the way media often portrays in movies and in shows and even in sort of the social conversation around it. Guess that exists, but that is not the only way to be a leader, the only way to be a CEO and sort of circling this back to this idea of owning your weird. So much of the work I do when I am working with execs and advising execs, it’s about understanding, well, what are you what is your way of leading.

Right? You don’t have to follow a paradigm or an archetype or even a role model that you had. People like, oh, well, that guy was so visionary or this person I worked for was so inspiring or the CEO before me did x, y, and z. Yeah. Cool. That’s great. Let them do their thing. Doesn’t mean that has to be the way you do yours. And and and allowing for a diversity of leadership styles, of approaches to leading, of approaches to decision making, etcetera, etcetera, is something that, as you said, is still so lacking because there is so much of this, like, performative, leadership.

Bert Martinez:

Absolutely. I, I’m reminded of Steve Jobs. He was kind of a weird leader and and also, very, sometimes very aggressive or very, what do you call it, hard fisted. Right? I I’ve interviewed several of Steve Jobs’ employees, former employees, and one thing they all have in common is they’ve all been fired by Steve Jobs at least least once. And so that was, like, his thing of getting you know, trying to get more out of you or better out of you or try to wake you up. He would fire you, And then, like, a week or 2 or 3 later, he would hire you. And I met this one lady. I apologize I don’t remember her name. But she I think by the time she left working with Steve Jobs, she had been fired, like, 6 or 7 times.

Rupal Patel:

Ain’t that and you what’s so cool about that story aside from, like, it gives him another weird quirk to talk about is also the humility involved in that process. I mean, at some point, it becomes just a bit of a weird compulsion. Right? Like, hiring, firing the same person multiple times is maybe you’ve got other things going on. But also, the acknowledgment that actually maybe I made the wrong decision, and I’m going to be humble enough to to go back to that person and admit that I was wrong.

And I think that’s also something that is a bit, lacking. Is this is the humility to acknowledge when you’ve done something wrong or to accept and own that you might have made the wrong decision or that you were, you know, you were just, didn’t have all the answers or whatever it is. Right? Not to say, oh, you know, like, I never get anything right, but to at least have that self awareness of, like, actually, no. That was the wrong thing, and I’m gonna go back and try to fix it.

I think that’s really, you know, something that we need to do a lot more of.

Bert Martinez:

Absolutely. I think that goes from, from the, what do you call it, from the dining room table to the boardroom table.

Rupal Patel:

And, you know, it’s the cool one of the great things about being at a place like the CIA, we were empowered to say, I don’t know. And I think that lesson of being in a room full of, you know, whether it’s the president or senators or, you know, the secretary of state or whoever it was that you were in front of. You didn’t know the answer. You didn’t make stuff up. Right? This and there was this both unwritten, but also very, commonly acknowledged rule that you accept and you own when you don’t know the answer. You don’t make stuff up because the stakes are too high, but you don’t just leave it at that. You don’t just say, oh, well, I don’t know and just deal with it. Right? You say, I don’t know.

I will find out and come back to you with an answer. Or I don’t know. There is a gap in our collection on this. We will fill that gap and come back to you once we have better insight. Right? So it’s not just sort of wallowing in your ignorance and and being like, oh, well, I don’t know the answers to anything. It’s no. Know what you know, be very clear about what you don’t know and be willing to acknowledge that, but then fill those gaps.

Bert Martinez:

Yes. And I remember I don’t know how many leadership classes they talk about that. If you don’t know something, admit it. Find the answer. What’s the next step? How do I overcome this lack of knowledge? And every now and then, you will find individuals who hate to admit they don’t know. And they will make things up or they will whatever they do. And and and then they they end up getting found out that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

And then they get lambasted because, look, you didn’t know what you were talking about as opposed to saying, you know what? I don’t know. I I remember watching an interview in with Mark Cuban. And they asked him a question. He said, you know, I don’t know that. The interviewer says, wow. That’s so refreshing to admit that you don’t know. Because this guy, he’s considered a thought leader. He’s got, you know, he’s got these companies that he’s run. He’s a billionaire. He should know everything. But the reality is we don’t.

Rupal Patel:

And that’s the other thing again, the sole mythologizing of leaders and what it means to be a leader is this idea that you are all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, whatever, and that’s total nonsense. Right? The reality is the Mark Cubans of the world have the confidence to say they don’t know. They’re not gonna pretend, they’re not gonna, you know, buy into or perpetuate that idea that they have all the answers because they don’t. Right?

Again, it goes back to that humility and that self awareness of, like, you know what? I am confident enough in myself, and I know what I know, and I acknowledge what I don’t, but I’m not gonna pretend otherwise because that doesn’t serve anyone. And I think that is, again, one of those really refreshing things to see, but it shouldn’t be refreshing because it should be more commonplace than it is. Right? But some of it is the expectations that are put on leaders to know all the answers and to be able to predict the future. And so it’s not just about their egos. It’s also about the expectations whether from boards or from from the electorate or whoever it is that, like but we put you in that position.

You should, you know, know more, do more, see more, etcetera. And, you know, yes, you should have expectations, but tempered with reality. Right? Nobody is all seeing, all knowing. You can never be.

Bert Martinez:

That’s right. That’s right. And I think back to what you said, you have to, first of all, be confident in who you are and then be humble enough to say, I don’t know. If you are a confident person, then not knowing shouldn’t bother you that much. It it should again, like you said, we’re not gonna know everything. It’s just impossible. And depending on on your area of expertise, things have changed.

You know, what we knew was what was working, let’s say, a couple years ago may not be working today, may no longer be valid. Exactly. Science changes all the time. It’s so not knowing and admitting it, it should be okay.

Rupal Patel:

That’s but that’s the first step in the process of them finding out and learning. Right? And I think the idea is not to be again, to move away from this, and I like sort of, easy mnemonics for these things, but move away from the idea of the all knowing to being the all growing. Right? Being willing to grow, to learn, to push yourself, to stretch yourself, to fill those gaps and not stay stagnant, but not perpetuate this idea that you are fully formed and perfect as you are, because there’s always uncertainty, there’s always, something that you couldn’t have planned for, you couldn’t have predicted, and also so many things out of your control. Right? So let’s acknowledge that and and and be grown ups about this.

Bert Martinez:

Right. Right. I love that. All knowing to all growing. So which is ultimately what life is about. You’re constantly expanding. Right? Yeah. Every now and then, I hear somebody say, well they usually use this when it comes to money.

Right? Well, how much money does one person need? Well, that’s just one way of of measuring things. But I always look at at somebody who has a lot of money, and what else are they doing with that? So I know Bill Gates gets a lot of guff, but the guy has spent a lot, literally, billions of dollars with different charitable organizations trying to do different things. Other wealthy people have done the same thing. So it’s not just money, but I always look at it as, can you have enough intelligence?

Can you have enough love? Can you have enough help? Can you can you have enough, closeness with your family and the people who are important? So the universe to me is is about expanding. It is about more. You know, what is the next level? Because back in the day, they would quit their jobs, and I think the historically, there was, like they would live, like, 18 months on average, 18 months after retirement because they had no next goal. They were just sitting at home waiting to die. That’s it. And so Yeah. I think yeah. If you’re if you wanna be if you wanna fulfill your potential, it is about what’s next.

Rupal Patel:

And also expanding this idea of wealth. Right? Yes. Wealth has a financial component, but there’s you can be wealthy in relationships. You can be wealthy in, emotional intelligence. You can be wealthy in just your, your skills there. Let let’s be real. The financial part is important. Right? And it and once that is the basics are covered there, it enables you to have a more expansive view of of the other things, but wealth can take many forms.

Right? And all of us can think of financially wealthy people who might be really impoverished in other aspects of their lives. Right? Whether it’s their physical health or their emotional health or well-being, their relationships, their whatever it is. Right? It’s not an either or. And I’m not making that argument either because I think there’s so much overplayed, sort of hype around this idea of, like, oh, well, rich people are miserable and rich people are all selfish and greedy and and you Yeah. Right? There’s no way you can categorize any group of anyone in any very reductive way. Right? There are marginally rich people, and then there are very generous rich people. There are marginally poor people, and there are very generous poor people. Right? And everything in between.

But the reality is we get to choose the kind of wealth that is important to us. And so it can be financial. It can take many, many, many other forms as well.

Bert Martinez:

Yes. Absolutely. Alright. So I gotta ask you. Are you from New York? So you you’re, and your parents are from India, or or were they born here as well?

Rupal Patel:

No. My parents were born in India, and then they moved to New York.

Bert Martinez:

You okay. Your parents are from Yeah. We came from Cuba. So I’m I’m bringing this about because there is certain things that I remember, at least from my parents, and and I’m gonna eventually get to my question for you. You know, my parents were really big on, working your butt off. Right? It’s all about hard work. And so, my dad used to be a big thing. And his thing is, you know, you don’t have to give a crap about anybody else as long as you have integrity and you work hard, you know, you’ll be successful.

So that’s one of my values that I took away from my parents. What about your parents? Is some of the same stuff there?

Rupal Patel:

Definitely. I think it was, this idea of, yes, definitely working hard, but with the end goal of being 2 things. 1 is trying to fulfill your potential, whatever that looks like, whatever direction that takes you, and also giving back. Right? So it was never enough to just be successful or to reach whatever personal ambitions or goals or whatever else that you had. The idea was always, how can you lift as you climb? Right?

How can you bring others with you? How can you help those even if you’re only marginally better off than they are? How can you help them? And the the running joke in our family growing up because my parents were the first in their respective families to move to America. You know, we often used to refer to our house as the Patel Motel because there were always, always people living with us for extended periods of time, cousins of friends, of aunts and uncles. Like, it didn’t matter how far removed the connection was. My parents’ view was if we can help, we will help.

We don’t care if there are, you know, sort of people are, you know, 2 like, 2 to 3 squashed in a bed and we’re having to, you know, make all kinds of adjustments in our personal comfort, in our personal lives. We will help whenever we can in every way we can. And that came from, thankfully, from both of my grandparents and it was sped down into my parents, and then they sort of they didn’t even really talk about it. It wasn’t often sometimes it was an explicit conversation, but we saw it. Right? We saw it happening. We saw the sacrifices they made for others that they made for, again, total strangers sometimes. And for me, I won’t speak for my siblings. And for me, to be honest, there was a lot of resentment around it.

Right? It was like, why do we have to help these people? Why can’t you know, why do I have to share all my toys with all my annoying cousins? Like, you know, very selfish, limited view of of of life, right, at that time as a child. And then I grew up and I realized that actually this idea of an expanded sense of community and this this almost universal sense of, of obligation to others, right, to help those that you are in a position to help is a it’s not fun when you’re living it, but it’s such an important lesson. Right?

And it is something that has informed everything that I’ve done as a grown up, as a, you know, someone who has my own, you know, sort of choices and agency and all these things now, but I didn’t like it at the time. Right? It was a tough lesson to to but with the benefit of hindsight and maturity and and perspective, I realized what a huge, huge gift it was to have both that, like I said, drive for self improvement, but also social and community improvement.

Bert Martinez:

I’m interested to find out. So were your parents a very typical Indian family? In other words, did did they want you to date only other, let’s say, Indian boys and things of that nature, or did they let you become fully invested in your American dream?

Rupal Patel:

Do you know? It’s so interesting. They were, I would say, traditional in some stereotypical ways for sure, but so liberal, you know, sort of small l liberal in all the important ways. Right? So I think, yes. Did they have preferences? Of course. Right? Most people have preferences because they think that, you know, it’s sort of whatever they think. Right? I’m not gonna project anything that I have never asked my parents about on them. Yes. The preference was for sure that I would ideally find someone who is Indian or Indian American and and, you know, we’d be able to preserve the culture and the language and etcetera, etcetera.

Things didn’t work out that way. Right? And that and that was the beauty of my parents is that, yes, they had goals, aspirations, and and sort of, things that they would have liked, but they were never obstructionist when we chose a different path. Right? They again, stereotypically, both of my parents are are doctors. And the assumption was always that I would be a doctor and that me and my 3 siblings would be doctors. Only one of us made that choice. And my parents were so supportive of it, and they were always willing to adapt themselves to who we were as individuals. So, yes, they had preferences, but they were never locked into them. They were never, prescriptive about how we lived our lives, who we chose to love.

They were are very, very broad minded and, again, very community minded. Right? They recognize that excellence can come in many forms. Love comes in many forms. Good people exist everywhere. Right? So it’s not just and so from in all of the practical important ways, they are incredibly, incredibly actually, in all of the ways. Right? They are very liberal. Yes. They had a preference, but they weren’t going to lock me in my room or force us to do anything other than what we chose as, again, smart, intelligent, well raised, you know, full of the right values individuals.

Bert Martinez:

Right. Yes. Yes. And and I think that went, the same way in my family. You know, I’m Cuban. I should be dating Cubans and and all that other stuff. But, like you, I want a different way. Alright.

So, you go from and then you talk about this in the book and also in your TED talk, which I just adore the TED talk because you spent quite a bit of time with the identity that we all deal with. How out of place we are. Especially, you know, here you are. You’re attending a Catholic school, and you’re this Indian girl. So that had to be rough. But, again, growing up with an immigrant background, English to me was a second language and not being able to speak it well and and stuff like that. But you we all go through that transition, right, of feeling awkward and feeling weird and trying to fit in. And then as we start to get to know ourselves, we’re able to shed some of not not necessarily our weirdness, but shed the what do you call it? The need to fit in as much.

And and I think that that is not something that, is taught. And I think that not only should that be taught at home, but really should be taught in school because school is is like this crucible, if you will, of of trying to you know, there’s so much going on in school. Right?

So I love the fact that you bring this about in your book. And you know, we should mention book that, your book. It’s right there in the background. It’s from CIA to CEO.  And it’s also been called one of the best, books on business by, Harper Bazaar there. So let me ask you this.

So here you go you go from weird girl feeling awkward to how did you get to the CIA?

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. So I was, getting a master’s degree in international affairs and had fully intended to actually join the state department, take the foreign service exam and go that route into the diplomatic world. And then while I was getting this degree, someone from the agency invited me to apply. And it was not on my radar. It was, I didn’t even think that there was scope for someone like me in a place like that because like most people, I just assumed what I saw in the movies was all that the agency was. Right? So I was like, well, I don’t really wanna go out and be a spy and, like, you know, like, drive as I would love to drive an Aston Martin, but I knew that wasn’t part of the job description. But I was like, sure. Let me just see.

Right? Because I haven’t again, I’m very open minded to ideas. It doesn’t mean that all of them are good ones, but Right. I hadn’t considered this. Let’s let’s get some more information and see if there’s something here. And so I had a conversation with this this man, who ended ended up later on being my my boss and got to know a bit more about what I would be doing, the kinds of work, the kinds of opportunities, the kinds of training I would receive, and I just thought, oh my gosh. Yes. Like, you could not have come up with a better combination of things that would tick literally every box that at that time, and even to some extent now, is important to me. So, you know, having an impact, getting to be, you know, a nerd about things that are of of tangible importance to my country, getting to live and work overseas, being, you know, trained in different languages and different skill sets, physical skill sets, as well as intellectual skill sets.

And, you know, the way I refer to it in the book is sort of it appealed to both my inner nerd and my inner badass. Right? Like, there are these 2 very, seemingly opposing, but very intertwined elements to to my personality. And, yeah, the CIA was like, holy cow. I had no idea. This is, like, literally the dream job. And it was. And anyway, so that’s how it happened. But it was not part of this big grand plan of, like, that I’m gonna do this and then do this and then do this. It was a bit more, organic than that.

Bert Martinez:

Okay. And so you tell your parents, hey. I’m gonna go into the CIA, and what was their reaction?

Rupal Patel:

They so my dad loved it. My dad, still to this day, thinks that I single handedly was behind every single headline in, like, the foreign, you know, the foreign politics section of the New York Times. Right? Like, he’s like, oh, I just read about this. Was that you? And he’s like, when you were away on that on that trip, did you do that? And I was like, god. How big of me do you think I am? Right? Like, we haven’t figured out how to clone people yet at the CIA. So, no, I I’m not behind literally every major event in the world. I’m not behind any major event in the world.

Yeah. Very proud dad. I think my mom was also proud and also very supportive, but a little bit more, just a bit more reserved in her exuberance around it and also probably a bit more concerned for my physical safety and what that meant for my physical safety when I was traveling and working overseas.

So there was never a question as to whether this was a good idea or I made the right choice or and again, I was and still looking back on it, it was, you know, some of the most fulfilling years years of my life. And I remember very vividly having a conversation with my father where I was saying, you know, I wake up every single day excited to go to work. And he was like, Rupal, if you have found something that can sustain that level of excitement for you, that is a rare opportunity, a rare gift that you have been given. Do not let that go. And I and and so I did it for a while. I mean, eventually, I did let it go.

But not because it became any less fulfilling or any less interesting and and that’s, you know, we can go down that route if you’d like. But, yeah, they were nothing but supportive. They were really gracious also when I couldn’t tell them what I was doing, when I couldn’t, which was a lot, when I couldn’t tell them where I was going. And I think, you know, as long as I was able to check-in with them in some capacity, they were okay okay enough about that not knowing what was going on.

Bert Martinez:

Yeah. That has to be probably the worst for parents. I have I’m blessed. I have 2 boys and 3 girls. And, you know, again, because of my the way I was raised, I’m very, very, what do you call it, protective of all my kids, but especially my 3 daughters. Right? And so I think that would be definitely very difficult. And and but again, as a father, I’d be bragging to all my friends. Yeah.

My daughter did that. Yep. Yep. Yep. She did that. Whether whether it was true or not, I’d be bragging about it all day long. Right? Because that’s that’s what that’s what you’re supposed to do. Right? Alright.

So so, what got you to go leave. I’m sorry. What got you to leave CIA?

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. So I wish there was like a, like, bigger answer than this, but the the the honest answer is 2 things. 1, with the benefit of hindsight, I real realize how ridiculous this first response is gonna sound, but it is true. I was approaching my 30. So I was at CIA from my early twenties to my early thirties. And as I was approaching 30, I remember thinking, oh my god. This is a big milestone. Like, after this, like, I’m like, it’s all downhill from here.

Right? And I remember It’s so stupid. And I remember consciously thinking to myself, if I don’t leave now, I will I won’t I would be too old for anybody else to to hire me. Right? Because I’ll be over 30. But I believe, like, I wish I could somehow, get into the heads of anyone who has this idea about, like, how old certain ages are because and and as you and you probably recognize as well, like, the reality from what we think and what is true is so different. And and 30 is I’m not trying to be patronizing, but you’re still really damn young at 30.

Anyway, so it was like, if I don’t leave now, I’ll be too old. Right? I’ll be past my my expiration date. So either I make a conscious choice that I will be a lifer or careerist here at the agency and I would be very happy and very fulfilled, or I leave now before it’s too late, see what else is out there. If I like what I see, cool. And if I don’t, I can always come back. Right? So that was one element of that conversation. And then the second element and it’s somewhat related to the idea of, like, well, let’s see what else is out there. It was also let’s see what else is in here.

Right? I had done so much incredible, fulfilling, interesting, exciting, stretching work that I had never thought that I would be able to do. And and again, all of the training and the, you know, exercises, etcetera. And I just thought, what else what else am I made of? Right? Like, let’s let’s test this. Like, you’ve already proven to yourself that you can do things that you never thought you could would be able to do physically, mentally, etcetera. What where where’s that boundary?

Right? Like, again, it’s this idea of, like, pushing myself and testing myself and seeing or pushing past what I thought were my limitations or at least testing what those limitations might be. So I figured, you know, let me go out there, test myself in new ways, see what what else is going on, what else I am made of, and and then see what happens. So that was those were the sort of the two conversations, but there was nothing pushing me out. There was nothing pulling me to it.

Literally, the only thing I knew with some degree of certainty was that I wanted to live in London. I had, you know, traveled to London a lot. I had, you know, for some reason, there was something about the city that really captured me. And and and so when I was thinking about, well, what next? How do I, you know, where do I go from here? How do I even decide what happens? Right? Like, there’s so much possibility. There’s the world is massive. That was the one anchoring sort of data point was, I wanna try to get to London somehow. So that’s that’s why, and that’s that’s sort of what happened next.

Bert Martinez:

That’s cool. And that is pretty funny. You’re right. That’s, you know, oh, my expiration date is right around the corner. I’m turning 30, and and, yeah, that is that is silly. So okay. And for our audience, I do wanna mention this.

It’s in the book, from CIA to CEO. You had multiple war zone experiences. You and and and, you talk about, again, catching a plane, a secret plane in a secret location, and you’re landing in another secret location. You’re surrounded by all these, again, tough guys. Everybody is armed. They’re they’re they you don’t say they handed you. I like the fact that I think it was in your TED Talk. You talk about they threw you a bulletproof jacket.

There’s no, the oh, let me help the, the female here. Here you go. You’re one of us. Yeah. Just slap it on. And and and you talk about I love this. You talk about, peeing in buckets Yeah. Which we all love to do, especially when

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. It’s a skill.

Bert Martinez:

It’s a skill. Absolutely. You know, sleeping in storage facilities. Right? And stuff like this. So, yeah, this has gotta be a very, again, growing moment. Right? These these things. You’re either gonna shrink or grow.

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. Exactly. And and that’s what I love about those environments. I I really like, I don’t seek them out. In this instance, I did seek it out because I volunteered to to go, to the war zone. But, but I because it really is the ultimate test. Right? Like and as you said, you either sink or you swim and most people will swim. Right? When forced to swim, you will you will find a way and that’s what is so great about, again, that experience is that you’ve realized that we are all, and I fundamentally believe this, we are all infinitely capable.

It’s just we lack opportunity. We like whatever else it is or, you know, sort of exposure. Who knows? But I didn’t know that I could do that. Right? Like, I it’s not fun peeing in a bucket or sleeping in makeshift, you know, sleeping arrangements and and all of the the big and small discomforts and whatever at the same time. Right? Like, get a perspective because I was not on the front lines. Right? I was not in a combat role. I was not literally putting my well, in some ways I was probably generally at risk, but I didn’t you know, I was not I am not in in in any of the armed services. I never was.

And so I also had this sort of I’m in I I’m sort of in a very lucky position. Right? Because I am here at will. I can leave at will. My tour is so much shorter than anybody, especially on the US side who was doing tours overseas. So I had nothing but respect. And again, that humility of, like, I have nothing to complain about. Right? I get to go back to my pretty relatively comfortable situation. I can go back to headquarters whenever I want.

I mean, not whenever, but, you know, there there was a lot more, agency. And I I don’t mean that word instead of or I don’t mean that Pre agency. There wasn’t a lot more. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I I could I could decide things a lot more. I had a lot more flexibility and room to maneuver. And so I am I think I’m pretty good about keeping perspective in any difficult situation about, like, yes, it might be tough and a lot of people might not be comfortable in the situations that I put myself in, but I also don’t have it that bad.

Right? There’s always someone who’s, like, sacrificing a lot more and who’s going through a lot more. And so it was not as hard as I thought it would be, if I’m honest. Right? And, of course, then I have the support of this incredible organization around me. I have really wonderful colleagues. And, yes, it was not by any stretch of the imagination, a comfortable or an easy experience, but it was made more comfortable and easier because of some of the things that I had and some of the people around me. Even if they were in almost without exception, you know, sort of very alpha, sort of manly men. Right? Like Right. That also is a bit of a stereotype.

And I and I think I do mention this in the TED talk, and this is sort of circling back to something you you brought up earlier, this idea that we’re all weird in some way. Right? We have these stereotypes and these archetypes of what a special forces man looks like or is like or what someone in the military is like or what an agency CIA person looks like. The stereotypes are exactly that. Right? They’re more often than not made up by Hollywood or magazines or some form of, like, mass media. The reality is always so nuanced.

And so I worked with some really incredible special forces men, and they were all men at the time, who had eating disorders. Right? Who had confidence issues, who had imposter syndrome, who felt, yeah, all of these things that you would never put in the same sentence. Right? One of my favorite examples, and and he’s still a good friend of mine, a navy seal who, you know, did some of the hardest training any human being could ever go through and then some. And he was also an English major at the Naval Academy. And he and I would talk about Dostoevsky and the books that we were reading. It made him no less macho. Right? And he and he to his everlasting credit, he would make fun of this, like, performative macho culture. Right? Because we all had call signs and and some of the guys would have names like Oak or Duke or, like, Butch or, you know, whatever, like, something really tough and manly.

And he was like, my call sign is gonna be cupcake. Right? Like, I’m going to laugh at all of this because let’s be real people. Like, we’re we’re all on the same level. Like, let’s stop with all of this, like, chest beating and, like, on, you know, whatever we’re doing here. And I loved that about him. Right? And he was a seal, so he had nothing to prove. Again, it goes back to this idea of having that deep inner confidence. You don’t have anything to prove.

Right? No one is gonna question your masculinity because your call sign is cupcake. Right? Like, you you’re you you embody, like, you’re you’re enough. You’re enough as you are. Right? You don’t have to prove anything to anyone. But first and foremost, you don’t have to prove anything to yourself by some of the trappings of, like, how you talk about yourself and how you, you know, sort of talk to others, etcetera. So so much nuance, so much shades so many shades of gray, and an incredible, incredible yes. As you said earlier, formative experience in in all of the the ways possible.

Bert Martinez:

Alright. So what was your call sign?

Rupal Patel:

Arsenal.

So the reason I chose Arsenal, and this is going to I don’t know if we have any soccer fans amongst your audience, but I played soccer my whole life, from, like, kindergarten through high school. I love the game. I’ve always loved it and, was sort of brought into the world of English soccer in the early 2000. And, Arsenal was the team that I was sort of introduced to, and at the time, fell in love with the coach, his ethos, his way of leading, his management style, and also some of the players, and, like, they were just a really solid team. Anyway, so Arsenal was my call sign because I love the the soccer team.

Bert Martinez:

That’s awesome. Alright. So based on your experience, do we need more CIA or less CIA in today’s

Rupal Patel:

Oh. Oh, I don’t know if there is an easy answer to that. My, I think, I’m glad the CIA exists. And every time I despair of what is happening in the world, I always think, I know there are good people in that building who are trying to make it better. So I can’t say if we need more or less because I haven’t been in in the building for over a decade now, and I have no idea as to, you know, the spectrum of what’s happening. All I can say with confidence is that I’m glad the agency exists. I’m glad the people that I know who were there have now sort of raised are are much more senior and are doing incredible things. And I know there are so many good, thoughtful, yeah, just people who have our country’s best interests at heart.

They’re not partisan. They’re not, you know, one thing or another. They’re not they don’t have an agenda other than which is the the not the agenda, but the the oath we all take, which is to protect our country from all threats. Right? Foreign and domestic. And and so I’m glad that the people who are in that building are in that building and and and I imagine are still continuing to do amazing work. I hope that they have the resources they need to do the things that they need to do. But more or less, I can’t say. I I genuinely can’t say, but I’m just glad that they’re there that they’re there.

Bert Martinez:

Yeah. Absolutely. I think, that’s a good sentiment. I mean, look, the reality is the CIA is a secret organization. There there’s there’s so much that they do that we don’t know that they do. Right? And and they don’t take credit. It’s not like they make a press conference, right, and say, hey. We just we just stopped this terrible thing from happening.

So, yeah, God bless God bless them and and the rest of our intelligence people and and our military because we we certainly need them. And I think, my opinion is we probably need more. I think, there is, you know, there there’s a lot going on, and and look look what’s happening now. We have Russia. We have, Ukraine. We have Hamas. We have, I forgot what the other one was, but there’s a lot happening.

Rupal Patel:

And I sorry. One thing I will stray, maybe we’re getting a bit, political here, but I will say one of the things that I and again, this is not well well, I will say with confidence that I think we need more of is in in our in our country is more cooperation. Right?

Things have gotten so polarized and so everyone’s digging their heels in and creating echo chambers around themselves and and and getting self righteous about their view on the world. Fundamentally, we do not have the luxury to fight amongst ourselves because of all of the things that you have just raised. Right? There is rising influence from China, from Russia. There are all of these wars and these big global challenges that we are facing, not just as a nation, but as a human species.

Right? So all of this bickering and this partisan nonsense is just partisan nonsense. We have bigger fish to fry. Let’s not lose sight of the bigger picture, and I think we need a lot more of that cooperation and that coming together as like, yes, there are many things that make us different as Americans, as individuals and as groups and whatever else. Fundamentally though, we believe in certain values.

We need to defend those values both at home and abroad. These are not things that we can take for granted, but we need more coming together. And that hopefully will can help at least in the short term to keep it from being like, well, the military is the solution to everything or espionage is the solution to everything.

Fine. They’re enablers and they’re protectors in many, many important ways. But fundamentally, we need to re-stitch that fabric of American society that has come become a bit frayed, well, a lot frayed recently in the past decade plus. And that that all of us have to do that. It’s not just for the politicians or for the elected officials or whatever else. We all need to do that because we all rise or fall based on what’s happening in the rest of the world, and we are letting those things happen while we’re fighting amongst each other. So let’s not do that.

Bert Martinez:

I agree. I agree. I I think that that’s, I think that’s, absolutely right on target there. And and it’s so interesting that that you’re on the show today and you had the CIA background because one of the things that I said, oh, I don’t know, a couple of months ago, I was talking to a friend of mine, and I said, you know, because we have this this polarization, it would be so easy, especially with all the AI tools and the deep fake videos. It would be so easy for one of our enemies Of course. To to really exacerbate what’s going on.

They could put out a fake video. They could put out a fake video or or fake tweets, or they could they could really manipulate us so easily because, as you pointed out, we’re fighting so much among ourselves. Yeah. We’re not trying to take care of our country. It’s just this bitterness, and we’re digging in. And, it’s it’s yeah. We’re setting ourselves up. we’re we’re we’re setting ourselves up for massive failure.

Rupal Patel:

And we don’t have to. Right? There’s nothing inevitable about that. We can all fix this. No one wants that outcome. Right? None of us. No matter how much we might fight against each other, nobody wants to see a world in which we have less power, less influence, less legitimacy, and yet, you know, we are creating the conditions for that to happen. And as you said, you know, let’s not be naive here, people.

There are lots of foreign actors, and and we have seen in previous elections when there has been interference and fakes fake news and sort of wedging these divides even further and further apart. That’s not that’s not inevitable. Right? That’s not something we should enable or that we should encourage in any way because it does not help us as a country. So fundamentally, we need to figure out a way beyond beyond this or through it. Right? Like, let’s have honest conversations. Fine. But, yeah, we can’t afford to see that that legitimacy and that power and that control because to what and to who. Right? What’s the what’s the other option?

Bert Martinez:

Absolutely. Alright. So so let’s dive into this a little bit. Again, the book is from CIA to CEO. So how did your experience at the CIA shape your approach to business and leadership? Talk about this.

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. So a couple of big ones, and I’ve said it a couple of times already, but the idea of humility in leadership was something that I really I didn’t realize it at the time, but that it this is something that I very consciously now have internalized and and sort of have brought into my leadership roles. Because one thing you realize, and this comes from being in the field or even at headquarters. Right?

One, no matter how much information you have, there was always something unknown or sometimes something unknowable. Right? So, yes, do the best you can to fill those gaps, to answer those questions, to all of that great stuff. But at some point, you have to always leave room for new information to come in and change your mind or your perspective in some small way. Doesn’t mean you’ll always get it, doesn’t mean it’ll happen, but at least leave room for that possibility. Right? That humility that, like, you don’t have the answer, that there are perhaps many answers, and you’ve just decided on this one given what you have, you know, at your control and at your command right now.

So that humility to, like I said, leave leave room open to for for challenging ideas or new information to to change things a little bit. In that same way, it’s or expanding that a little bit. It’s the humility to also acknowledge all of the things that are out of your control because, you know, again, I will use the CIA example.

You can have the best mission plan, the best resources, the best people, the best thinking and all of the contingency planning. And the second that plan goes into motion, every single potential thing that could go wrong will probably write Murphy’s Law. Right? Like, things go wrong, the world is an unpredictable place. Sometimes things like the weather will mean that you can’t, you know, sort of take off in a helicopter or a plane until hours later or some other, you know, seemingly, insignificant element of things sort of literally throws a wrench in your plans. So again, that humility to acknowledge that control the controllables and let go of this illusion or delusion that you can control the outcome.

You can only do what you can do, right, in the moment, like, given the realities of this unfolding situation. And so it’s always, again, to just go into it. Yes. Be prepared. Do the as much as you can, but always acknowledging, like, things aren’t gonna the world has no, interest or has no stake in having things unfold the way we want them to unfold. Right? So let’s be real about it and let’s acknowledge when yes. Hopefully things go to plan and it all like just sort of, you know, beautiful and seamless. Sometimes that happens.

Right? So it can happen, but very rarely. So acknowledge and accept how much is out of your control. Stop worrying about it. Stop obsessing over it, and just focus on the controllables. I think those two lessons have fundamentally altered, not just the way I lead, but the way I live my life. Right? The things that I choose to worry about, the true things that I, I lose sleep over, all of these things. It’s like, okay, fine. What can I do about it? Right? Because either I can complain or either I can complain and do something about it or I shut up. Right? Like, for me, it’s not enough to just be like, oh, I just need to get this off my chest.

Fine. Get it off your chest if you need to, like, bend the emotion. But then what are you gonna do? What can you do about it? Where none of us is totally helpless, is totally powerless in any situation even when we can’t control so many of the things that affect us. What can you do about it? That that resilience, I think that is really what it comes down to is this, this mindset of, like, the world will do what it does. People will do what they do.

Right? As much as we would like to be able to, like, influence and control others. Like, again, that’s that that there’s a very there’s a limit to how much that that works. So just own it, accept it. Again, control the controllables and move on. I would say fundamentally those those two things have probably just shaped everything that I do and and the and the approach that I have with it. And then also this, and this is, I guess sort of somewhat related, but to acknowledge and this ties in a little bit to to some of the stuff I talked in my TED talked about in my TED talk is to let people surprise you. Right? Oh, yeah. Because we all go in in into this into any context.

But in a leadership context, it’s maybe particularly damaging sometimes. We have preconceived ideas of who this person is or what they’re gonna contribute, and it’s not it’s sometimes it’s based on how they look and whatever, you know, demographic box they they they fall into. But sometimes it’s also, oh, well, the people in legal are all this way or the people in marketing are this. Maybe there’s a bit of nuance that you might be missing and not just it’s not just important from a how you talk to other people, but also how you manage the talent within your organization because everybody is complex. Everybody is multifaceted. Right? Even the most boring accountant will have it at and I’m sorry to accountants for picking on them, but they will have interests and dynamism in some capacity of their lives. Right?

might be outside of a work context, but the reality is everybody comes to their role with a much broader skill set than just their their sort of narrow little function. So to allow yourself to, again, just accept that as true, you might not know what the the expanded skill set is, but to at least go in with the operating assumption that this person is more than what they seem. Let them surprise you.

Let them pleasantly surprise you with, you know, what they’re capable of and and and and what, other skills they can bring that will help your organization or help their team or whatever it looks like. I think that, yeah, willingness to just like be interested in people. Right? And and have that curious approach to, like, who am I talking to? Who is this person in front of me?

What what else is going on beyond the superficial, beyond what I am assuming and what I am projecting? I think that is, again, another really, critical sort of intangible skill, but it’s something that I I I do very consciously because everybody has so much more going on than we ever realized. And again, it circles back to that humility. Right? Like, we don’t know what else in a in a sometimes in a in a, in a slightly sort of sad sense, like, we don’t know the struggles, right, that are happening behind the scenes.

But in a more positive element, we also don’t know what else they’ve got. Right? Like, what else they’re made of? What other sort of gold, and and I don’t want to reduce people to, like, objects, but, like, you know, sort of what other what other skills they can bring to the table.

Bert Martinez:

Well and I think that you’re you’re an example of that in the sense that here’s this guy, doesn’t know you, reaches from the CIA, reaches out to you where a lot of people might have just overlooked you because, you know, they’re gonna put you in a box. And so here’s this guy who said, let me see if I could you know, for using your vernacular, let me see if I can be surprised. Let me see whatever. And so it changed, you know, it changed your life. You had an impact there at the CIA. So I think that’s a a fabulous idea. Instead of  putting people in a box, let I like to see if they you know, let them give me the opportunity to presently pleasantly surprise you.

Alright. So so let me ask you this. When it comes to, specifically things from the CIA, was there a specific thing or a specific example of how the CIA applies to a business strategy or how you applied it to a business strategy?

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. So I think, another and this is a bit more sort of, tangible. Right? You you finish before you start. This idea that you plan it all out as much as you can in as much detail as you possibly can. You You know, who’s going to do this and what materials do they need and what, you know, what time is that we’re gonna do the check ins and all of this stuff. This and that is again, it’s you can see why in a in a CIA context or in a in a sort of a foreign mission or any sort of sort of strategy that would be useful in a business context. That’s incredibly valuable. Right? Because from a from a financial planning perspective, from a resource planning perspective, if you finish to the extent possible, again, acknowledging the uncertainty, acknowledging, you know, the randomness and all of the things that we just talked about.

Bert Martinez:

Yes. Absolutely. I think that, hopefully hopefully, all of our leaders both in the military as well as in corporate in the in corporate leadership, you you’d plan the best you can as you’re talking about. And I think you do have to plan for these uncertainties. I mean, nobody planned for the pandemic that shut down the world. And but I  hope that we’ve learned something from there that, well, it might happen again. It may not be this year, but sooner or later, it will happen again. You know, the the one of my, favorite movies is, the zombie movie called World War z.

One of my favorite parts of that movie is Yeah. He’s in Israel. Yeah. And and and he asked the this Israeli leader, well, how did you guys build these walls? Everybody got the same information at the same time but Israel was the only one who acted and they built the this massive fortification, these walls around Israel. Yeah. And and so the guy explains about the 10th man theory. Right? That that if the consensus is this will never happen, the 10th man has to do the opposite. They gave him the resources to to do what he thought would be best. And because he did the opposite of what everybody else, bam, bam, bam, saves Israel for a while.

And there’s a there’s a book I read. I can’t remember the name, but the one thing I took away from this book is what would have to happen for these assumptions to be real? And when you start thinking like that because, again, your big point is there is so much that we don’t plan for. We think, okay. Hey. If this happens, this will happen and we’re gonna make some amount of dollars or we’re gonna do this.

But what if it doesn’t happen? What if it all goes wrong? Right? So so a lot of us just don’t do that. We avoid it, matter of fact.

Rupal Patel:

Yeah. And I think it’s that walking that that that really sort of finding that sweet spot between planning and then remaining agile. Right? So you do the plan, you do the contingency, you have the 10th man, you have to debate the the holes and the threats and the and the assumptions, etcetera. But then always, and the asterisk is always there, you have to be able to pivot and course correct in real time as the realities unfold in front of you. And so it’s that combination of planning as much as you can and then always going back to this idea of, well, what what what am I working within this moment? Right?

How can I if we’re here if we’re here and we need to be here, well, what can I work with now that will get us back on track? And how can I make these little mini corrections to to get us back more on plan and and not just blindly following the plan, but again be responding to real time? And that is sort of that, like I said, that sweet spot between planning and agility, and and it it takes practice. I think Yes. You know, we’ve all learned the hard way, right, from from the pandemic and all of this sort of the constant hits that have been coming our way. We can all do it.

We’ve proven the concept personally, professionally, we’ve all done it and organizationally, we’ve done it. But how can we embed that agility into the culture of how we make decisions and how we create organizations? And that is for me, like I said, that real, it goes back to that mindset, that learning mindset, that that openness to, you know, being challenged at leaving room for disconfirming information and then moving forward and and again, focusing on what you can control.

Bert Martinez:

Absolutely. You know what? I forgot to ask you this in the very beginning. Again, the the book is called, from the CIA to CEO. What was the inspiration behind writing the book?

Rupal Patel:

For me, this was fundamentally about reaching more people to have more impact because I was having similar ish conversations around many of the topics, right, that we’ve talked about. Resilience, performance mindset, agility, humility, all of these big picture topics.

I was having 1 on 1 conversations with executives or I was having, you know, sort of group conversations with some of the companies that I’ve been working with. But I thought, look, none of these lessons are restricted to the the boardroom or to to a corporate context. These are universal life lessons. Right? The tagline is unconventional life lessons for thinking bigger, leading better, and being bolder. And my view was, let’s democratize this. Right? Like, I they they shouldn’t just be that people who are, like, working with me will have access to some of these tools and these frameworks that can be valuable in any context.

A book is an incredible way of of at least giving people that access to some of the insights and some of the ideas. And so it was sort of a practical consideration, and that was sort of why why why it came into being. And a more personal consideration was I’ve always been a writer. I love to write. I’ve always I’ve always written. I’ve always loved the process of finding the right word, of communicating through through words. And so for me, it was like, wow. I can take a really important emotional, personal sort of bucket list box for myself as well as give back to the world in some in some way.

Bert Martinez:

Alright. So in the book, you talk about this thing called tactical ignorance. Talk about tactical ignorance.

Rupal Patel:

Yes. So let’s, I have to do a bit of explaining because I think it’s the combination of the two words. We don’t just take tactical and we don’t just take ignorance. Ignorance is not a good thing. Right? Like, let’s we’re not trying to bury our heads in the sand and make, you know, sort of put lipstick on a pig and be like, oh, yeah. Okay. This is this is all great. Right? Not what I’m talking about.

The tactical sort of qualification on that word is what makes it really, really powerful. And, again, it’s sort of a performance tool. And the idea behind tactical ignorance is that we can all choose, not cherry pick, choose very consciously the inputs that we are letting in. Right? Especially when it comes to performance or to pursuing a big vision or an ambition. Because the reality is there are infinite ways something can fail. There are infinite ways that things can go wrong.

There are infinite ways we will get in our own way. So being tactical about the inputs that we are letting in so that we are curating very consciously the things that will help us move in the direction that we want to go and to, again, achieve a goal, a vision and ambition, etcetera, etcetera, and and not to be ignorant of of of some of the challenges or some of the, maybe disconfirming information, but he can be very tactical.

Right? Know enough to to make sure you’re not falling foul of of of big silly mistakes, but not so much that you’re burdened by, well, this is how things have always been done, and this has never been possible. And so it’s more of a sort of a mindset around what’s possible. Right? Because we all know anything, everything can fail spectacularly. Any anything that can go wrong, they’ll go wrong. But instead of obsessing over that and holding ourselves back from pursuing things, accept that to be true. Right? Don’t go down that rabbit hole of, like, what are the bazillion ways that I can fail in this endeavor? Instead, curate those inputs.

Well, who are the people who have done it? Right? What can I take inspiration from other fields perhaps in ways that can inform the way I’m approaching this endeavor or this project or this achievement or whatever else it is? So if there’s like a practical element in a just, you know, choose what’s going to help you move forward with your goal. Again, the the caveat always being as long as your goal is not, like, destructive and horrible and and, you know, dehumanizing anyone or anything.

Right? But it’s also a mindset tool because we can also get so especially in a in a leadership, in a in a workplace context or even in an interpersonal context. We can get so spun up around, like, the atmospherics and this person is so important and I’m so unimportant or they’re so senior and I’m so junior or this is a really important client. Instead of focusing on what are we there to deliver, like, what is the reason I am being asked to be in this room? What is the reason I’m going to this meeting or this conference or talking to this client? Right?

And instead of saddling ourselves with this like, oh, well, I’m not good enough or imposter syndrome or whatever else it looks like. Again, tactically ignoring all of that stuff that you cannot control. Right? You can’t control how important or how interesting or how interesting or how more senior or whatever, but focusing on what is going to help you deliver what you need to deliver in that moment. So a very practical way that I use this in my own in my own experience was when I was in a war zone, my one of the my main roles was to be the civilian intelligence briefer to the 4 star general in charge of the war effort. And here I am, a civilian woman young, I was 20 6, all of these things on his turf, active war zone, etcetera, etcetera, and I could have.

Most people are like, oh god, you know, he’s a 4 star general and, oh, and this is his lieutenant and this is that, you know, sir sergeant that, you know, paying attention to the stripes and the stars and all of this stuff. I remember very consciously telling myself, I’m not going to learn what any of those those symbols means because I know myself. I know that, you know, I can get wrapped up in the hierarchy and the who’s who of of things. And because I knew that about myself, I chose not to give that give myself more work and more of a hard time than was already going to be, you know, in an already difficult context. Instead, I was like, okay. Fine. They are who they are. Right? I’m always gonna respect them and like you said earlier, like, or like we talked about earlier, have that just, you know, so we’re all on an equal footing here.

Right? I’m I’m not gonna, like, put you on a pedestal, but I’m also not gonna talk to you like you’re unimportant. I acknowledge a 4 star general is, you know, requires respect and and and and I acknowledge his authority, but I’m not gonna obsess over that. What I’m going to obsess over is how well can I prepare for this briefing? How can I ask good questions in the preparation of the briefing?

What do I need to learn from my my team back at headquarters? Doing all of that stuff so that when I am in that room, I am delivering the most value added impactful, whatever it is, briefing that I possibly can instead of worrying about, like, oh my god. Who’s in the room and who’s he talking to and who’s next to this person? Right, because that’s irrelevant. That that that’s not gonna help me. That’s not gonna help them. So choosing to very tactically ignore the rank and the and the hierarchy and instead channeling that that energy and effort into something much more productive that will help me achieve the goal of providing him some value and some and and some useful insights. That’s how tactical ignorance can can really help with performance based, again, that that head game.

Right? Because so much of it is really just mastering what’s happening in that conversation in your in your head before an important meeting, before an important call, or what conversation, or whatever it looks like. So don’t give don’t make it harder on yourself than it needs to be. Focus on your value, focus on your preparation, focus on what you are bringing to the table and why they have asked you to join that conversation instead of all of the other stuff.

Bert Martinez:

Yeah. I think that’s great advice. And you’re right. We have this inner dialogue, this constant fight. Are you you know, who are you to give this 4 star general advice? You’ve never even, you know, been in a war or whatever. You’re not a military person. You’re 26 years old. That would be intimidating.

But I love that this idea of technical ignorance. That doesn’t matter. I’m putting all that aside. And I think that works. I think anytime we’re going to endeavor something big, something that’s gonna help us to grow, stretch. Right? Something as simple as being a parent. I don’t know too many parents that are ready to be a parent. And if you listen to your dialogue, I would have never had kids. I’d certainly was not prepared. Right?

Rupal Patel:

You know, Bert, I’m so glad you brought that up because actually that is another really vivid example of when I use tactical ignorance. Right? So I was considered a geriatric mom. I had my first child at 36, my second at almost 40. And, and I remember at the time being like, oh my gosh. Like, you know, I had friends who were going down that Google rabbit hole of, like, the risks of pregnancy and the risks of this. But I was like, no. I am consciously not going to go down because everybody’s got an opinion about parenthood and what it means and how old is too old and this and I mean, right, both from a medical perspective as well. So up, like, it just so, like, let me just give you unsolicited advice.

I don’t need that. Right? I don’t need that noise. I don’t need that distraction. I don’t need anything else to make me feel more uncertain about this already really intimidating new experience, especially the first time, and I chose not to. I literally went on what I refer to as a low information diet. I listened to the experts. Right? Like my doctor, my parents, other people who are, like, qualified to have the opinion and the advice and the whatever else. But beyond that, I wasn’t gonna worry about it.

Right? Like, I really wasn’t because it was already such a big unknown to me. I wasn’t gonna make it harder on myself than it had to be.

Low information diet, qualified people, taking their input, and then just letting it be what it I couldn’t change the fact that I was 36 or almost 40. Right?

What I could change was how I was taking care of myself, what I was doing. Again, whose expertise and advice I was seeking, whatever, all of that stuff. But beyond that, it the other stuff was not gonna serve me, so I did not let myself get distracted by it.

Bert Martinez:

I love this idea of a low information diet.

Rupal Patel:

That is qualified information. Right? You gotta get it from good sources. Like, people who are qualified in some way to have that give that information. But yes.

Bert Martinez:

I love it. I love it. Alright. So this brings me to this because we talked about, individuals and and our own weirdness. How can individuals leverage their unique weirdness or their unique identities and experiences for success in their careers?

Rupal Patel:

Oh, I love this question. So there are 2 pretty, clear ways to me. 1 is first and foremost to know what those strengths are. Right? Because so much of the conversations in schools, in in workplace context is, like, working on your developmental areas and fixing this or filling that gap or retraining this. And, of course, there’s always room to improve. Right? I get that. Let’s I’m not saying that you should just sort of stay stagnant. But there is a point at which there are some real diminishing returns from constantly trying to fix something that is seen as wrong or lacking instead of doing what I think is far more valuable, which is leveraging your strengths.

Right? We all have strengths. We all have, sure, weaknesses, blind spots, whatever you wanna call them, but let’s be real. By the time we’re in our thirties at a push, like, probably even mid twenties onwards, that core of our strengths and our core of our developmental areas is not really gonna change. Right? So know what your strengths are. Find ways to leverage those strengths in a conscious, tangible way in your workplace context. And by the way, this is true whether you’re starting your first job or you’re a seasoned executive. Right? Like, many people still feel like, oh, well, I need to be like the chief everything officer. And if I don’t, you know, master every element of my business, then I, you know, I I don’t deserve to be here kind of thing.

That’s total nonsense. Right? You hire smart people to fill in the gaps, but you double down on your strengths. You double down on the fact that you’re an amazing communicator or amazing tactician or an amazing strategist or a financial whiz or whatever it looks like. Right? But the reality is your strengths are yours, other people’s strengths are theirs. Let’s not try to be everything to every all people at all times. It’s it’s it’s a losing game and it’s also just not possible. So know what your strengths are. Find ways to bring them to bear more more more consciously and tangibly in your workplace context.

For me, that has always been communication analysis and and and some form of of making connections. Right? So at the agency, I volunteered for briefings. I made sure that, you know, yes, I was doing the work behind the scenes, the analytical work, but I was doing as many briefings as I possibly could because that was leveraging my strengths. Right? And some other of my colleagues prefer to do more of the analytical work behind the scenes and less of the briefing, and that fine. Let’s play to that, you know, that beautiful interplay. But know what your strengths are. Stop trying to constantly make up for things that might need, you know, sort of not your your strengths. And then so that’s one thing.

So no one leveraging your your strengths. And then also being willing to and this is maybe slightly counterintuitive, but it related to my first answer, which is being okay being a competent half ass at everything else. Right? Because, again, the reality is you’re not gonna be able to master all the things, but and let’s be grown ups about this. You might have to be at least a little bit conversant or even competent in things that are just really hard for you. Right? So Right. Again, you know the realities of your work, of your position, of your responsibilities. It doesn’t mean that you’re just like, no. This is who I am, and I’m not gonna do all that other stuff.

No. Develop and invest in and leverage the core of the skills, but also be willing to be just good enough at the other stuff so that you can maintain your role. You can, you know, sort of push things through that need to get pushed through or or be successful in whatever context you’re in, but you cannot be everything. So it’s this, again, it goes back to that that confidence of, like, I know what I’m good at and I will use that as much as I can to to help the organization, to help my people, to help whatever. And also, I will also acknowledge where that line is between me knowing enough to be useful and then me trying too hard to to do things that are I’m never gonna be an expert at. So it’s but but first and foremost, like I said, about being conscious and concrete about what your strengths are.

Bert Martinez:

I like that so much. And I love the the the half assery, comment there. Right? And it’s good. I  agree with you. Yeah. I like I like to know enough, like you said, to be able to hold a conversation. So these terms that I’m not going, well, I gotta look up that term or what does that mean. At least you know somewhat.

But, again, you it’s not your area of expertise. And so I think that’s a valid point. And I think that one of the biggest mistakes I made early on as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, is I would hire people that mirrored Me. Right? And so they had the same skill set as I did because I understood those people. But guess what? That’s a great way to bottleneck your business. You gotta find people that have the opposite strengths and bring them in. And but anyway, so absolutely.

I love this idea of just building on your strengths. Alright. Let me ask you this. Because part of life, part of business, part of of anything worthwhile doing is going to involve, setbacks and obstacles. So how do you advise or what advice do you have for those entrepreneurs who may face obstacles or setbacks along their journey? What advice would you give to them?

Rupal Patel:

It’s gonna be a bit of tough love. And the tough love is you chose this route. Right? Well, in many instances, maybe not all. You chose to be an entrepreneur. You chose to do something unconventional, a little bit risky, a little bit, you know, where there aren’t sort of very well trodden paths necessarily. So it’s just part of what you signed up for. Right? There will have been challenges and setbacks if you had done something a bit more traditional. Right? Nobody gets to just have this, like, beautifully coasting career and life forevermore.

Right? There’s always gonna be something that shakes things up, puts you out of your comfort zone or is is incredibly overwhelming and and it feels like the world is trying to crush you. That’s just life. Right? So I think acknowledging that this is what we sign up for is, it’s just just being real about it. Right? There’s no easy way success. There’s no easy way to to to pursue something that’s really important to you. You have to be clear eyed about what you’re what you’re what you’ve signed up for. And also, because it is universal, because everybody goes through setbacks, whether they talk about them or not, everybody has faced, every entrepreneur has faced that oh, shit moment of, like, this is make or break. Right? I can either it’s either all gonna work out or I’m gonna go bankrupt, or it’s all gonna work out and I’m gonna have to start from from scratch again, or whatever it is.

Right? There are these these real sort of pivotal moments. Or there are things like the pandemic where it all feels like it’s hanging on a very fine and getting increasingly finer thread, and somehow you find a way to make it through. So, again, accepting that as the universal experience. Yes. Some people might have an easier time of it than others, but, again, you don’t have the full picture there, so maybe they’re just not sharing how difficult it was. But because it is just part of what you sign up for, you have a choice again to either give up, and there’s no value judgment. Right? Like, it’s freaking hard. I will not criticize anyone for trying and realizing, you know what? Actually, this isn’t for me.

I thought it was gonna be something else, and it’s just not for me. Again, having that humility and self awareness to say, nope. I’m done. Cool. You walk away. But if that is not what you want, if that is not if you actually don’t think that it’s too much, then you have no choice but to keep going. Right? So it’s be very clear about and almost make it a I mean, because it is. Fundamentally, you have 2 choices.

You either keep going or you quit. Right? So quit. Cool. No big deal. No no, like, no shame, no no harm, whatever. Like, that is okay. It is genuinely okay. But if you’re not gonna quit, then what are you gonna do about it? Right? Who can you talk to for help? Who can maybe you just need to reset.

Maybe you need to take a bit of a break. Maybe you need a bit of a reality check. Maybe you need to get some professional advice. Maybe you need to talk to somebody else in your industry who’s done it and who’s seen themselves through a couple of the economic cycles or a couple of the growth cycles. Right? But there’s always something you can do, something you can learn, a conversation you can have to just rebuild that momentum because we all have those times. I remember vividly there were times, especially in my first business early days about, like, God, maybe, like, 10 months in I mean early early days, I was under my covers in bed crying, snot, tears, like angry at the world, angry at the people who would let me down, angry at the people who aren’t doing what they said they were gonna do, angry at everything. Right?

And those cycles would sometimes laugh that, like, anger and frustration and just like, I hate everything and I hate everyone and, like, this all sucks. Sometimes those that, like, period would last for a really long time, like, that energy of just like and so but that but I wasn’t willing to quit despite feeling like that for long stretches of time. And even in, like, the depths of that despair and that frustration and that anger and anxiety, I had to do something. Right? Like, the business required me to do something, to change something, to fire someone, or to to work with someone new or whatever it was. And so I had to just do the things. I had to just go through and to do what was necessary to do. And then what I sort of learned again through this the hard trials of especially the early days was I am a very emotive person. Like, I need to get the emotions out, but I don’t need to let that last for weeks or months.

Right? That is not helpful. And so to short circuit my own way of behaving, my own sort of knowing of, like, who I am, I to this day, Bert, and this is no joke, when I find myself in that spiral or that, like, anger or frustration or whatever it is of just, like, I set an alarm for myself. I give myself 15 minutes. And when that’ll and I will for that 15 minutes, I will scream. I will curse. I will do the crying and the snot or whatever is called for in that moment. Right? However bad it feels. And sometimes literally punch some pillows or whatever I need to do, when that alarm goes off, that is the trigger for me.

Okay. Done. Like, wipe yourself down, get a drink of water. Now what are you going to do to move forward? So set that alarm. Cool. If that’s what you need to do, get it out of your system. But then if you’re not gonna quit, focus on the next step. Focus on the small next step. It can literally just be picking up a a phone and talking to a friend. It doesn’t even have to be about your business, but just something small to get you out of that inertia and then start you back on that, like, proactive, what am I gonna do? How can I respond? What can I learn? Who can I ask for help? All of that stuff that, again, goes back to controlling the controllable. Right?

Success is not guaranteed, but you can guarantee what you do because you are only in control of what you do.

Bert Martinez:

Absolutely. And I think, that, like you said, everybody’s gonna have an obstacle and a struggle. And if you’re really building something big, you’re gonna have more than 1. I look at Elon Musk who’s had public failures, who has tons of people that just totally dislike him. But, you know, right now, Tesla stock is just crashing. People are making fun of him after taking over Twitter and changing it to x and all these other things. But yet, he’s got a huge record of success because he doesn’t give up. He handles the obstacles.

He handles the negative publicity. He handles all the criticisms. And one of the things that I’ve learned to do, I will use comedy as a way of snapping myself out of it. I’ll watch a couple of stand up comics and then me laughing and okay. Alright. Now I can think because back I said earlier. Look. If we’re in a negative spiral, if we’re in fear, if we’re in doubt and worry, it’s hard to be creative and think of a solution.

And also, I love I really too love this idea of of giving you a 15 minutes or 30 minutes. You set this alarm, you have the angry cry, the ugly cry, the snot, the pill you know, pillow punching, whatever it is that you need to get out of it. But then once that alarm goes off, it’s, you know, boom.

Rupal Patel:

Put your big girl pants back on. Right? Like, come on, people. We are grown ups. Right? We have agency. We have choice. We have options. Like, let’s just again, yeah. Like I said, put your big girl panties back on and and and keep moving.

Bert Martinez:

I love that so much. Yeah. You know? Alright. So, I, I wanna give out another shout out to the book. It’s called, from CEO I’m sorry. From CIA to CEO. And I I did it. Just for you guys, Rupal Patel, she, as you guys already know, is former CIA analyst turned serial entrepreneur, recognized for her trailblazing career spanning military briefings to corporate boardrooms. She’s also a, speaker And, you can check her out at rupalpatel.com.

Rupal Patel:

Oh. That’s It’s rupalypatel.com. The Y is important because otherwise you won’t get to me.

Bert Martinez:

I’m so glad you said that. So I will put I will put the link here in the show notes, but it has been such a blast having you and getting to know you and your energy is contagious and, looking forward to have you back again.

Rupal Patel:

I’m so glad you said that. So I will put I will put the link here in the show notes, but it has been such a blast having you and getting to know you and your energy is contagious and, looking forward to have you back again.