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Bert Martinez:
Nice girls don’t get the corner office. And we had Dr. Lois Frankel to explain why. Dr. Lois Frankel, welcome.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation to join you.
Bert Martinez:
I’m intrigued by the. Nice girls don’t get the corner office. And so let’s start off. Is being nice the fastest way to get ignored at work? Is that what you’re actually saying?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, what I’m saying is that nice is necessary for success. Both men and women have to be nice. It’s not sufficient. Women over rely on nice to the exclusion of developing complimentary behaviors like assertiveness, speaking up, you know, being the first in a meeting to say something. And so, yes, you have to be nice, but you can’t be that nice little girl you were taught to be in childhood and expect to achieve your adult goals. It’s not enough.
Bert Martinez:
At what point does being nice stop helping and start hurting you?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, it starts hurting the point at which you’re more concerned about everybody else’s feelings to the exclusion of your own needs. Now, and this is something women learn at a very early age that it’s better to, you know, we are the caretakers, right? We’re the ones who are supposed to, you know, be there for everybody. And I think there’s a certain degree to a certain degree that’s a good thing. I don’t see anything wrong with it. But as I said, when it means you’re so busy taking care of everybody else, whether their needs, their feelings, their egos, whatever, to the exclusion of you getting your needs met, then you’ve gone too far. What, you know, what I say is that nice is a continuum. And on one end of the continuum we have Sally Field, right? We remember what Sally Field said when she won the Academy Award, right? You like me. You really like me.
Bert Martinez:
I remember that.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right, remember? And for me, when I heard that, it really underscored her need to be liked. Because look at the roles she took up until then. She took roles like Gidget, the Flying Nun, right? Smokey and the Bandit, sidekick, things like that. So even her roles reflected that. But then on the other end of the continuum, you have somebody like Martha Stewart, who Martha Stewart went to jail not because she cheated the government out of, I don’t know how much it was, but it was rounding up numbers for her. Okay? She went to jail because people didn’t like her. They found her imperious. She wasn’t nice enough.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So there’s this place in the middle I think women can be.
Bert Martinez:
I think that Martha Stewart is a good Example, I think she was convicted mainly on personality. They said that she had lied, but really, I mean, how many people have lied to the authorities and gotten nothing?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, they get elected president is what they got.
Bert Martinez:
Now, not everybody that lies gets to be elected president. You have to lie a significant amount to be elected.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, but you’re absolutely right. You know, she lied, but a lot of people lie.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. And I think to your point, if. If Martha Stewart would have been a male CEO, I don’t think she would have been convicted. And people talked about that, that she was convicted. A, she was a female, and B, how dare she stand up to the boys? And that caused her to be locked up for a few months. I don’t. You know, ultimately, I think it helped her. It.
Bert Martinez:
It didn’t really hurt her brand.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, no, it didn’t. And you know what I say to women is, hey, look, if you think you can be Martha Stewart and get away with it with a slap, essentially a slap on the wrist, go for it. But most of us can’t.
Bert Martinez:
If I go away for a few months, my income dries up.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And as opposed to like, you’re right, Martha Stewart went away for a few months. She didn’t miss any paychecks. She didn’t, you know, she was. Well said. And so that. That is the best way to go to prison. If you’re gonna go to prison. Let me ask you this.
Bert Martinez:
Based on what you said about this programming that goes on about being liked and being trained to be nice and nurturing, are most careers then basically sabotaged before the age of 10, if you’re a nice girl?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, I think we’re sabotaged before the age of about five, to be honest with you, because little girls get messages that little boys don’t get. Now, I realize that’s changing. Okay. When I was brought up, when I was growing up, it was very clear. My messages were, be nice, be kind, be helpful, be quiet. People won’t like you if you’re too smart. All of those things. My brothers got messages about be tough, you know, go out and earn a living, expect to be rich, get educated.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And so, you know, to some degree, it depends also on ethnicity. Part of the world you’re in, in some cases part of the country you’re in, whether you get those messages or not anymore. Now, even parents who are giving messages to little girls like you could be anything you want. You’re just as good as your brother. The sky’s the limit for you. What great messages to get. The problem is, as soon as they get to school, all bets are off. And let me just give you a quick example.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
There was a woman in one of my keynotes and we were talking about this and she said she sends her daughter off to school every day with a fist bump. Be smart, be kind, be healthy. Okay? Five years old, girl comes home one day, she didn’t hear, he didn’t eat her lunch. And her mother says, didn’t you like your lunch? She said, no, mommy, it’s not that. It said, I’m getting fat. Now where does a five year old right, get that message? So this is what I mean. Even when you give your daughters the right message, they get to school, they hear different messages, they get involved in social media, more different messages. You watch movies, television, read magazines, different messages.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Then you get to the workplace and those messages are reinforced. All those things that you heard about who you were supposed to be. And so, you know, we’re just sabotaged. For me, I feel like every step of the way,
Bert Martinez:
one of the great blessings in my life is I have five kids. Three are daughters, two are boys. And I could see it for myself because when my girls are around me, I treated them for the most part, just like my boys we did when we worked out together, I expected them to do the same thing. And, and at one point, my girls were the only girls in elementary school and even junior high that could do multiple pull ups.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Okay.
Bert Martinez:
And then later on, let’s see, our babies are twins. And so on the school bus, there was this boy that was picking on one of my twins and the other twins stood up for her.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Were the twins a girl and a boy or two girls?
Bert Martinez:
Two girls. Two girls.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Okay.
Bert Martinez:
They, like a lot of twins, they’ll defend themselves. And so they wanted to suspend my girls for standing up for themselves. And they initially weren’t going to suspend the boy. And I said, it’s either, all three or, or none of them. I said, if you, if you don’t suspend the boy, I, I would file a lawsuit because. And what? So, and this would astonish me, the principal involved, the person I’m speaking with is a female. And so I told her, I said, I’m shocked that you’re taking this kind of stance, knowing what you know.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And, and so anyway, bottom line is she backed down and she ended up suspending all three. Okay, fine. I still thought it was the wrong message because they were suspended for standing up for what was right. But again, I’ll take that over. Over doing it incorrect or. Yeah, doing it, I guess the other way that they were planning on doing it. But it’s still out there. It is, it is prevalent.
Bert Martinez:
It might have gotten, I think, a little bit easier, but it’s still not equal.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, it’s definitely not equal what you just described. I don’t have a problem if there’s a no bullying policy or a no violence policy that everybody gets treated equally. So even though your daughter stood up for themselves, if there’s no violence or no bullying, everybody should get suspended if you, even if you stood up for yourself. So I don’t have a problem with that, but I do have a problem with exactly with what you were saying, that if just the girl, something’s going to happen to the girls. Now there was an article I read recently about this is one of the reasons why men are, or boys in some cases are falling behind now because throughout their lives they are treated as if, you know, you’re a step above and you don’t have to work as hard to get where you’re gonna go. Because look at this kid who wasn’t gonna be suspended. That kid would have gotten the message, I can do whatever I want and get away with it or.
Bert Martinez:
Right, right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And it’s why girls have feel as if they have to work twice as hard and guys can just kind of skate by. But now what’s happening is that the guys are realizing, well, wait a minute, I can’t skate anymore.
Bert Martinez:
Not only that, they’re seeing that they’re being held accountable in some cases and that their female counterparts are almost equal with them in some cases. And so I think, yeah, I do believe that some of the less than. How do I want to say this? The boys with lesser self esteems are dropping back. I think that if your self esteem is strong, then competition shouldn’t bother you whether it’s male or female.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right. Although as you said, that one thing came to mind and I think it may be self esteem, but boys who maybe have less self esteem but are really smart, I mean, I’m thinking about Asian boys now. You know, some of the communities in which I’ve lived, the Asian boys, they don’t have the same self esteem as the Caucasian boys, but they’re a heck of a lot smarter and they’re a heck of a lot more disciplined and they work a lot harder and it’s why we see them getting ahead.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And then, you know, the Caucasian boys complain that they’re not getting, somebody’s getting unfair treatment. Well, you know what, these guys are working hard.
Bert Martinez:
Right, right. And look, I Think for the most part, and if anybody out there has the stats, I’ll be. I’ll be glad to be corrected. But it still seems to me black and Caucasian boys are still encouraged athletically. Where. And I’ll say even. Even some. Even Hispanic boys, as opposed to other cultures, as you mentioned, the Asian culture, for sure.
Bert Martinez:
They’re more academically encouraged.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. Yeah. So some of it is cultural, for sure. And when you talk about the boys being encouraged to be athletic, I mean, look what happened with the Olympics that the boys. The men. I think it was the men’s ski team, I don’t forget which team it was, was invited to the White House. But the women’s team that won, I think maybe it was hockey. The men’s hockey team was invited because they won.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
The women’s hockey team won, too, and they didn’t get invited until one of the guys pointed it out.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, that’s. I. I was not aware of that. That is.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Just goes to show you. It just goes to show you. And I think there is this. And I want to get your. Your thoughts on this. I’ve. I’ve heard some men complain that. Exactly what you said, that, hey, these women are.
Bert Martinez:
Are complaining or bitching about not being invited to the White House. I think that’s the right thing to do. If you. If you see that you’re not being treated as equals, you need to raise your hand or your voice and say, hey, this is wrong. But there. But there still is that pushback. Guys still don’t like it.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. You know, part of the problem right now is we’re living in a unique time, right? We’re living in what I call a bureaucracy, that. It’s the brothers, right? It’s the guys who really have the power and control and who are making the decisions. And so even when you push back in this climate, you get pushed back harder. So you have people like Zuckerman who is saying leadership got too soft. Right? Now, you can interpret that as they got soft because we got more women in leadership and they lead differently. No, we got to really man up. Right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
They. You have Hag Smith. Hag Smith. Yeah, whatever his name is. I think I have a mental block against his name and him. So. But, you know, he. Look what he’s doing.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Taking women out of the running for promotions and also blacks as well.
Bert Martinez:
You’re a black female. You have virtually no future in the military. If you’re a black male in the military, you might. I mean, he wants to. He wants to. It seems like, anyway, that he wants to push back the military to the 19, I don’t know, 30s, 40s, where they weren’t females and blacks are segregated or weren’t even allowed. I think he’s going to do more damage than good. I think that most people in the service believe that, hey, if somebody’s willing to pick up a gun and fight next to me or with me, let’s let, let them.
Bert Martinez:
Anyway, I didn’t mean to go off that way, but.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, but it’s just, but it’s an example of how in this climate, women, particularly women of color, as you said, and people of color are treated differently. I mean, when you said, you know, black women don’t get anywhere in the military, they’re on the bottom of all the pecking orders, you know, all the research shows that they get treated the least fairly of anyone in the workplace.
Bert Martinez:
One of the things, as an immigrant, as a Hispanic, one of the things that I’ve noticed about America, and some people may disagree with this, but I think that America, for the most part is a equal opportunity discriminator. At one point, everybody felt some level of discrimination. Again, the, the, the Asians were poorly treated, the Irish was poorly treated. The, the Italians were fully poorly treated. Women, no matter what color, were poorly treated. Of course, white women were treated better. But, you know, women had to fight for, to vote, right? The suffrage movement, they had to fight to, to be able to own property, which is like, what. It’s just like.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, it’s crazy.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
It is crazy. It is crazy.
Bert Martinez:
It’s been an uphill battle. But again, I, I see that, that once, and I see this again across all cultures. I want to get your take on it. When a woman, let’s say Martha Stewart or who was the CEO of. You mentioned Zuckerberg, who’s at one point, she was the CEO of Facebook.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Oh, Sheryl Sandberg.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, it was Sheryl Sandberg. And then if you look at black entrepreneurs, the billionaires, the, even the multi millionaire, what I don’t see is them fighting for anybody else. In other words, you don’t have black billionaires, you don’t have female billionaires. I don’t care what color. You don’t see them on the front line saying, hey, this is wrong. Hey. They basically say, shut up, work harder. And I did it.
Bert Martinez:
You can do it. What’s your take?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, many of them do. I mean, I have two thoughts on that. One is Tyler Perry, now, he’s an exception, that he wants to bring people up with him. And, and I have a Lot of respect for that. It’s one reason why he started his production studio down in Atlanta so that more black people could, you know, find success in the entertainment industry. But on the other hand, to what you’re saying, you have somebody like Clarence Thomas, right? Now, here’s a guy who, I don’t know how many times he has voted against issues that would affirm the rights of African Americans. All right. You know, I worked for Arco, the oil company, for 10 years during my career.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And at one point, I worked in Equal Employment Opportunity. And it was when Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas was at the helm of it. He was the chair of the eeoc. And that’s when we started to see people’s rights being diminished because he gave orders to his people that he didn’t want to see all these cases where companies were being charged and found guilty of all this disclosure discrimination. So that’s when we started to see a decline in the eeoc. And then he went on to the Supreme Court, unfortunately, interestingly enough.
Bert Martinez:
Look who gives him. Wherever you. Whether you call it a stipend or a bribe or whatever, he gets most of his money, if not all of his money from white billionaires, which I find that, again, interesting. And I want to get your thoughts on this. On more than one occasion, I’ve heard. I’ve heard black people say this, and I’ve heard white people say this, that Obama did the least for the black people when he was in office. Any thoughts on that?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
I have not heard that. I think so. I’m only giving my opinion on this. You know, I just want to just. I don’t have any data on this, but in my own opinion, his mere presence and his wife’s presence and how they conducted themselves and how they communicated did a lot for, I think, the black community. I think just what I know of Barack Obama, he tends to be measured. So he wasn’t going to do anything that made it appear as if he was favoring blacks. But I think he did do things that helped blacks in the long run.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Like Obamacare. Right. Obamacare tended to help anybody who was not a wealthy white person.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And so I think there were things that he did that were not geared towards blacks, but that certainly impacted them positively.
Bert Martinez:
And to your point, if he would have done something that was overtly just to help the African American people, that would have caused big issues. Right?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
As a. As opposed to what we see now where it’s obvious that the current administration wants to help the wealthy. And I just thought it was so funny not to get off on this tangent, but it was so funny that, you know, on one hand, this administration is fighting drugs and we’re blowing up all these drug boats and then all sudden he pardons this drug dealer for a couple of million dollars.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
It’s because there’s a quid pro quo and everything. You got to know what’s he getting out. He’s getting something out of it because he doesn’t do anything that he doesn’t get something out of.
Bert Martinez:
Right. And I think somebody I, and again, I’ll have to, I’ll have to double check. But the, the, I believe the story is he, he got paid a couple million dollars and that’s what it is. And there’s not a whole lot that we or anybody else can do about it, thanks to. What do you call it, the, the guys in the, the Supreme Court. Anyway.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
So let’s get back on track now that we went off on that, by the way.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
But I don’t know if you saw that just today the Supreme Court voted 6, 3. To minimize or gut the Voting Rights Act.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, they did?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. Six, three. Along party lines. And what went through my mind was when were there party lines in the Supreme Court? There’s laws. Either you follow the laws or you don’t. Right. I mean, how can there be such discrepancy in what the law means?
Bert Martinez:
Well, again, I just saw, interestingly enough, I just saw a documentary and they brought that up. And interestingly enough, and we were talking about Obama. They, it was a specific Obama ruling that was kind of like that watershed moment. And, and that’s when the current Supreme Court really started becoming very political and they started ruling politically versus constitutionally. And, and you can see it, you know, the. How do you turn or how do you. Yeah. Reverse things like Roe versus Wade? And, and that means that this Supreme Court will reverse whatever they want.
Bert Martinez:
And, and there is really. We’re not going to follow the Constitution. It’s a guideline more than a rule. And so we’re just going to do whatever we want. And unfortunately, I think at least the. What is it? The, the four male conservative justices are all currently taking so some kind of money from Republicans. So how is that allowed? I don’t know. But I hope that the next administration, I mean, this is something that Congress could cure immediately.
Bert Martinez:
And they passed some pamby little law, has no teeth. But if you and I were in government and we got caught taking bribes or stipends or whatever you want to call it, they would come after Us again, if, if we’re, you know, Democrat or Republican, it might, it might be different, but this is something that really Congress could take care of immediately. They could just put an end to it and say, hey, you can’t take money from anybody else. Thomas, Clarence Thomas, directly, you know, when he was asked directly about this stuff, he just said, I can’t make, I don’t get paid enough as a Supreme Court justice, so I got to make money on the side. He said something to that offense, to that effect. My point is, then step down, go work a law firm. If you want to make a couple of million dollars a year, you get it.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, yeah. But you know, going back to the women’s issue. So let me ask you a question. Do you think if there were more women in Congress and if we had elected a woman president, if there was a majority of women on the Supreme Court, all this would be happening?
Bert Martinez:
That is a very good question and I have to. Answer it like this. It really depends on the women that are in office because I, I really don’t think, as far as whether it’s a female president or male president, I don’t think you’re going to see a significant change, at least not with the first female president. Because there’s going to be a pushback whether she’s Republican or Democrat. It’s going to be the bros are going to lose their mind. Right. And if she happens to be a black female, you know, who knows what’ll happen? Right. It’s just going to be complete chaos for a while.
Bert Martinez:
However, you, I, I like Amy, what was it? Amy Barrett.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
I think she’s conservative, but she’s not radically conservative.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
I think that if you had women that were like her. I also like Liz Cheney. I thought Liz Cheney was very brave. I really enjoyed the fact that she said, hey, I’m not doing this as a Republican. I’m doing this because it’s the right thing to do. And she put her life and her job on the line. When you’re that kind of a leader that sends a message, people will follow you. I would just for everybody.
Bert Martinez:
So I’m very transparent here. I used to be a die hard Republican and then the Republican Party like 40 years ago now got involved with the insurance industry. And I realized that the Republican Party just unfortunately, like any party, they’re for sale. And so that’s when I started voting, trying to find the best leader that I could vote for at that time. So sometimes I vote Democratic, sometimes I vote Republican. And again, to be transparent I’m not a fan of President Trump. I think that what him, what he and the other people that have fallen in line with him are really killing the Republican Party. And.
Bert Martinez:
And it might make way for a third party, because the Republican Party as it is today is different than what I’ve ever seen. Right. It’s no longer right. The GOP as we know it. It is. It is radicalized. It’s crazy. He’s following this.
Bert Martinez:
What is it? The 2020. Was it Plan 2025 or whatever it’s called? And now.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right. Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And now they’re coming up with plan 2026 and all this other stuff. And so I think that we are seeing a dramatic change in our government and the honesty of our government, or at least our government’s willingness to follow constitutional lines, our government’s willingness to, let’s say, do the right thing. I know that’s kind of a vague statement there, but in my opinion, one of the things I do like about President Trump is that he’s somewhat transparent that, hey, I’m going to take money from these guys because they’re giving me a jet plane, so I’m going to do favors for them. Or, you know, during the campaign trail, he told the oil industry, hey, you give me a couple of billion dollars and, you know, I’ll give you whatever you want again, to some effect. And that’s a YouTube video that’s out there on multiple channels. So I appreciate his transparency because rightfully so, he’s untouchable. I mean, there’s really not a whole lot he can do where he can be held liable by our current standard of justice. The US Supreme Court has basically made him untouchable.
Bert Martinez:
Now, you know, another pundit said he’s broken a bunch of international law. So we’ll see what happens when he stops being president. Maybe they’ll do what he did to Maduro. We’ll see. But I think that what I have seen from female leaderships, my experience with female leadership, to your point, they think differently. And not that it’s wrong or right, but it’s different. Again, having three daughters, I see how they think, and it’s just different. And not that it’s better or worse, but it is different.
Bert Martinez:
And some of the insights that they bring is something that I would not have conceived. So I’m open to it. I have been, again, working with CEO females. I have been shocked at how many times my assumptions or my presumptions have been changed because of the. Of the leadership that they bring. So does that answer Your question?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yes, it does. And I think the very first part of what you said is it depends on the leader. It’s very wise. Really. It does.
Bert Martinez:
It does. Because. And I’ll tell you what, I have not been a fan of Hillary Clinton, but when you look at her deposition, she was a better leader there than she was on the campaign trail. If she would have brought that kind of leadership to the campaign trail, she probably would have been our first president during the campaign. Again, her message was not good. It was very murky. And at that point, Trump had a very clear message, make America great again. Which, by the way, he stole from Ronald Reagan.
Bert Martinez:
Ronald Reagan, Yeah. And. And I think that the Democrats have not had a clear message for decades. And so I think that if. If Hillary would have demonstrated the leadership that she demonstrated during those depositions, and if she would have had a clear message, she would have won because it was really close. And so I think that sometimes. Back to this. This conversation that we’re having, sometimes I think Hillary and then again, Vice President Harris, because they’re trying.
Bert Martinez:
And again, this. This is a fault, I think, to all politicians, but definitely to the female politicians, because they’re trying to carefully navigate the. The situation. Their. Their true leadership isn’t shown, as opposed to. Again, a male leader may come in and say, this is what I’m going to do, and this is the way it’s going to happen. It’s very clear, very confident. And I think that most voters vote like they date, meaning if somebody is clear, if, if.
Bert Martinez:
If their message resonates with them, if they sound like they know what they’re talking about, if they’re confident when they speak, those are the same things that attract us to a date. And I think. And I think even looks make a. Make a. A part of that. I think that if you were a really ugly politician.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Mm. It’d be harder.
Bert Martinez:
Right. You’re gonna have a little bit harder time.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, it’s like, haven’t they done studies of the person who gets elected president is always the taller of the two candidates? Now, I don’t know if that’s still true. That was true, like, maybe 10 years ago. I don’t know if it’s still true that the taller of the two candidates always gets elected. So we need a tall woman.
Bert Martinez:
That’s right. We need a tall woman. And to your point, there are studies out there that indicate that, you know, that height does play a role in success. Elon Musk is, like, six five.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Is he really? He looks much shorter.
Bert Martinez:
He is Humongous. He is a really tall individual.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, I didn’t know that.
Bert Martinez:
And. And what do you call it?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So.
Bert Martinez:
So there is a bunch of studies out there that, that say, hey, if you’re taller, you do better, you know? And. And I think there was a study where they had a gentleman. It was a male photo. I think he was Caucasian. And they showed it to four groups of women, and all they did is the same photo, but they changed the backstory. Where this guy is broke and his prospects aren’t good, versus this guy is broke, but he’s got great prospects. This guy is rich, but he’s lazy. This guy is rich, but he’s.
Bert Martinez:
He’s got. He’s motivated and. And they all scored different. Right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
It’s interesting.
Bert Martinez:
All right, so back on track to. To women, what is it? The nice girls don’t get the corner office.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
So something that you said is, again, about this parenting, this culture, this.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
The.
Bert Martinez:
The. The stuff that we’re dealing with in school. And so if we’re programmed so early, can it become undone or are we just managing it forever?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, it’s not about becoming undone. I liken it to a prize fighter. A prize fighter might have a great left jab, right. You don’t want to undo his left jab, but he’s not going to win many bouts if he only has a great left jab. He’s going to have to have a good right upper cut or, you know, uppercut or undercut. I think it’s uppercut. And the same thing for women. Being nice is a big part of success.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Caring about other people, it’s a strength. But you can’t win the game with only that. So it isn’t about undoing anything. It’s about adding new behaviors that will make you more competitive. After you. After a while, after you add the behaviors, they become more natural for you. That’s what most women tell me, is that, you know, when I first start to do this, it feels so unnatural. And that’s true, because that’s not how you were brought up.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
But the more you do something, it becomes a habit. I remember I interviewed, and I don’t remember her name anymore because it was so long ago, but she was a famous tennis coach, and I asked her, how do you get your players to play at their absolute best? And she said, by not asking them to do too many things at the same time. So if I want them to become a better player, I might say, only bring your racket back further. And that’s all I’M going to ask them to do. And by bringing the racket back further, they tend to toss the ball higher, they tend to jump higher, they tend to do all these other things because of one thing. And that’s the same thing for women. If you do one thing different, it will tend to change all these different behavior.
Bert Martinez:
I think that’s a great example there. Somebody told me that in karate, you’re not mastering a thousand moves, you know, you’re mastering six. Oh, and the difference between a black belt, a second degree black belt, third degree black belt, so on, so on, is there’s. Is the mastery of those six moves. And so the moves don’t change, you just get better at them.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yes.
Bert Martinez:
So I like that because. And that’s probably the true. In any sport analogy, right? You’re not trying to master 6,000 different moves, whether it’s golf or football or whatever. It’s. It’s going to be down to a few select moves. And I like your idea of pick one and work on that one.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yes, absolutely. And you know, it’s interesting because I didn’t know that about the karate, but that’s, that’s a good analogy too. But there was a book, it’s called. There’s a guy who wrote a book called the Inner Game of Tennis. The Inner Game of Golf. I don’t know if you know this, but many years ago, when I used to do leadership training, we would take a tennis coach out on the tennis court with all these executives, some of whom never played tennis. So you’re gonna play a tennis game today. And then of course, they’re also competitive, so they didn’t want to do it if they didn’t know.
Bert Martinez:
I don’t want to look bad.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, right. And this tennis coach said, you’re only gonna do one thing. Bounce hit, bounce hit. That’s all I want you to. And I’ll never forget that. Bounce hit. And before the end of an hour, everybody was playing a pretty darn good game of tennis. And because they’re only focusing on bounce hip.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And in some ways, I think that’s what we all need to do in the workplace. Maybe focus on six. Six things that are going to give you success. Not a hundred things. You know, in my books, I talk about 100 mistakes women make. Right? Okay, you’re not going to undo 100 mistakes. But if you can add a couple of these behaviors to your skill set, you’ll gain more confidence, you’ll act different, you’ll sound different, you’ll look different.
Bert Martinez:
I like it. So here’s the. The next title for your. For your. Yeah, the next title for your next book. Powerful Women Master these Six Things.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
The six. This. Yeah, the Six Secrets of Powerful Women.
Bert Martinez:
Right, There you go. There you go. I love it. All right, so let’s kind of, I don’t know, call it a reality check. Let me throw this at you. If everyone likes you at work, are you probably doing something wrong?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, not necessarily. Because I think about some leaders who everybody like, you know, to a person, they say, I love working for this guy, this guy, this guy is great. But what makes him or her likable is the fact that they exhibit certain behaviors and characteristics. I mean, consistently. The best leaders show that they care, right? They listen well. They stretch people to do even better than they think they could do. They provide guidance and feedback on a regular basis, not just once a year. There’s certain things we see them do all the time.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And so, you know, one of the things I used to teach in the leadership skills class I do for both men and women is that you want to be the best friend you could be to your followers. And I used to use the term followers because if there’s a leader, there has to be a follower, right? You need to be the best friend you could be to your followers. And they’d say, yeah, but familiarity breeds contempt, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said, it doesn’t have to think about what your best friend does for you. Your best friend listens to you, tells you, if that dress looks bad, you know, is honest with you. You know, you just think, what does your best friend do? You do that with your employees, and you’re going to bring out the best in them and they’re going to like you. And you’re also going to be honest because you’re going to redirect them when they need redirection. So I don’t think everybody liking you has to be a bad thing.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
If. Let me. But let me give a caveat. But if you only act in ways because it will make people like you, I think then you’re on the wrong path because then you’re focusing on what are you getting back from it as opposed to what are you giving. And I think leadership is a lot about giving.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, and I agree with you. I think that you have to be authentic, understand that not everybody’s going to like you. And theoretically, you’re going to attract the followers. You’re going to attract the people that resonate with you. Your personality, your vision, your mission, things of that nature. And I Think that’s what a good leader does.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. And, you know, maybe there’s a distinction. When you said make everybody like you, not everybody’s gonna like it. What went through my head was, well, maybe not everybody will agree with you or not everybody will accept what you’re saying or like what you’re saying, but that doesn’t have to do with me being likable.
Bert Martinez:
Right. Well, and I think there’s also a distinction between likable and being respected because, hey, this person is tough, but they’re fair and, and, and they’re respected. And I guess you. It’s hard to respect somebody that you don’t like, but again, it’s, it’s one of those, it’s one of those lines that, that I think you have to learn how to walk. Right. It’s, it’s. I, I think it’s difficult and I think. But I think being authentic is vitally important.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Mm. Yeah, I agree. I agree.
Bert Martinez:
All right, so let me ask you this again. It’s nice girls don’t get the corner office. And again, you’ve been talking about operating like nice girls instead of women.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Adult women. Yeah, adult women.
Bert Martinez:
So. Yeah, so. So talk about that. Instead of powerful adults, you’ve been talking about nice girls. So, so, right. What’s the movement?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, the movement from nice girl to an adult woman to a self confident adult woman is about adding certain behaviors, like speaking up. Right. Saying what’s on your mind, speaking truth to power, having the willingness to speak the unspoken, taking a stand on things, disagreeing without being disagreeable, having a vision for things, not letting people take advantage of you, setting boundaries with people. These are all things that if women were to do more of these things, they would be more self confident and in turn would be treated differently. And when you’re treated differently, you get more self confident. And I think things would be different.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And that’s really what I talk about in the book. I give hundreds of coaching tips for what you need to do to move from nice to self confident. You know, one of my books, Nice Girls Don’t Speak up or Stand Out. It’s an audiobook and it’s all about what does it sound like? That’s why I told the publisher I want this to be an audiobook. I want them to hear me saying these things. Things that, you know, if you’re going to be. If you have to disagree with someone, there’s a model for that. It’s called the DES script.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
D E S C. I describe why I want to talk to You, I explain my point of view, I elicit yours, I specify what I want, and I create consequences. If you’ll follow this model, you will show respect for the other person and you won’t be taken advantage of something else. Another model is called the headline communication. Part of the problem for women is we tend to use far too many words. By some accounts, women use twice as many words as men. Right.
Bert Martinez:
You’re hearing it here from a woman.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Exactly. And what do you do? I gotta ask you, what do you do when a woman uses too many words? What do you do?
Bert Martinez:
I just say, yes, dear.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, yeah. And at some point you stop listening, right? At some point you say, yes, dear, and you too, now. And that’s what people do when we use too many words. The more words you use always softens the message, the fewer words you use, always strengthens the message. And so women use too many words because they’re afraid they’re going to get called a bitch. So they use all these words to soften the message, and in the process, the message is lost. So something, a simple thing a woman can do is speak in headlines. You give, ask the question, you give your main point, you follow up with two or three points, and then you stop.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Hopefully people have seen me do that here with you for the past, you know, 45 minutes or so.
Bert Martinez:
One of the things that I learned from Tony Robbins, and you kind of alluded to it as well, you actually mentioned it, and that is if you see somebody doing something, you can model it, right?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
If I could see it, I can be it.
Bert Martinez:
Right. And I think that if they’re. If you’re a female and you see either another female, those attributes that you like in that female, then you just copy her until it becomes more natural. And when I say copy, I’m not talking about creepy copy, but, you know, just, again, model that in. Some of my favorite people to work out with are females. And I. What do you call it? So we have a Spartan team, and there’s a couple of females and there’s three or four guys. And on more than one occasion, I have been pushed to my limits and beyond my limits because of the females, the female leadership in our group.
Bert Martinez:
Right. But. But I think that we can all look at some. Look at somebody, whether they’re male or female, black or white or whatever, and say, oh, I like that. I like that attribute. I like that, that characteristic. I’m going to do more of that and then I’m going to own it.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, I like what you’re saying. That’s something that I coach people to do. I say, look at the most successful person in your company or organization. What are they doing to be successful? And almost always. And I say almost always because I’m going to give you an example when it’s not true. Almost always you should be doing more of that. And so when you, whether it’s copying or emulating or just saying, hey, look, this person, when they come into meetings, are always prepared, and they’re always the first person to speak up. Well, okay, you can go to meetings prepared.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
You can speak up earlier. You don’t have to wait to be. I never tell a woman to be the first all the time because she will get called names. But you can always be the second or third and people take you seriously. Now, the exception is, I used to say this in a training program I did at this one company about, you know, look at the most successful person and be like them. And they would say to me, but what about so and so? Right. And so and so. I don’t even want to use her name.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So and so was an exception to the rule. Right. She wore short, short miniskirts. She had this leech blonde, teased hair in a very conservative organization. She had no filter. Right. And she had risen up through this organization. And I would always say, she’s the exception to the rul rule.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
One day she calls me and she says, lois, I have another client for you. Because she would send me coaching clients also, I have another client for you. And I said, yes. And she said, it’s me. I was up for a promotion. And I was told I couldn’t get it because I didn’t fit the profile.
Bert Martinez:
Wow.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So that’s a good example of it. Either you’re gonna be the exception or you can. Or you’re going to get caught, called on it, and you’re going to have to change. And so I think in most cases, you look at the most successful person and you can be more like them.
Bert Martinez:
Yes. And I. I’m a big believer that if you’re going to be outside of that normal box, whatever that means for your organization, you better bring it. You can’t be just a little bit better. You have to be astronomically better. You can say whatever you want about Elon Musk, but he’s got success on top of success on top of success on, you know. And so is he the most likable, nicest guy? No, I think he heard. I think he hurt himself in this brand getting involved with our current administration.
Bert Martinez:
And I think. And I think he mentioned that he regretted that. But bottom line is if you are crazy good.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Then you can be crazy.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
You could be the exception to the rule when you’re. Absolutely. And that was the case with this woman. She was crazy good until she wanted the next level.
Bert Martinez:
And I think that’s a painful realization that a lot of people have to deal with that sometimes you have to, you know, you got to fit in to a certain extent or you hit that ceiling and then you decide, I’m going to stay here or, or I’m gonna go on my own.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, you know, every workplace is a playing field. Every workplace is a playing field. There’s rules, there’s boundaries, there’s strategies. And you have to play on the field. And if you go out on the field too often, what happens in any game, you get called out, you lose the game, you know, whatever it is, there’s a penalty for going out too often, going out of bounds too often. And so you need to learn the rules, boundaries and strategies of your playing field and understand that the playing field changes from boss to boss, company to company, department to department. Right. What worked in one company, entertainment, does not work in defense.
Bert Martinez:
Right? Absolutely. And you know, especially smaller companies, they always like to say, oh, we’re like a family here. And I love that. And of course I always explain people, families can be crazy, they can be ruthless, they can be hard. You know, just because somebody says, oh, we have a great company, we’re like family here. Understand that that can mean multiple things because like when my family, when we get together and, and we’re playing games, we’re cutthroat record win.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. Has his twins doing pull ups. Yeah, yeah. But you’re absolutely right, you know that you need to play the game to win. But you also have to understand, you know, where are the boundaries?
Bert Martinez:
Yes. And by the way, boundaries are good. Everybody’s got them. Every, every department has them. And just because they’re boundaries doesn’t mean that that’s a bad thing. And if you can’t live with those boundaries, you make that decision.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Exactly. Get that’s a different playing field. That’s what I tell people. If you don’t like the rules on this playing field, find another playing field. Because you’re not going to change the rules of the playing field. You work for IBM, you work for, you know, Chase, you work for Goldman Sachs, you’re not going to change the rules of those playing fields.
Bert Martinez:
All right, so one of the things that I like that you brought up is using the Headline model. And so I want to talk about this because you say a lot of people aren’t overlooked. They’re under communicating their value. Is that, like, the biggest mistake?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Talk about this when you say the biggest mistake would be under communicating value. No, I’m not going to say that that’s the biggest mistake women make. I think it’s in tandem, maybe with overworking and under communicating value. Maybe it’s those two things, because for me, the biggest mistake women make is working too hard. Because we’ve been taught you have to work twice as hard to be considered half as good. And it’s not true, because the harder you work, all you get is more hard work to do. You’re not seen as someone who can be strategic, who manages time well. As a matter of fact, if you’re one of those people who, like, you know, is always pulling their hair out and always working, always have their nose down, people are thinking, now, does she not manage time well? This is like, you know, does she have no social skills? She never goes to what.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
People are making other kinds of judgments about you. And so what you have to understand is that in every organization, there’s a baseline for hard work. There’s a baseline every organization, and you have to work up to the baseline or you’ll get called out. If you consistently go over the baseline in working hard, you’re not seen as any more valuable than the person who works up to the baseline and also is strategic about managing their career. So you have to do both.
Bert Martinez:
And I agree with you on that. I. I think that in America, I think this is in maybe a couple other cultures as well, for many, many years. And I think this is one of the blessings that we got from COVID But for many years, you know, working long hours was somehow noble, and you would get, for lack of better terms, worthless, fake recognition. Hey, look at Bert. He’s putting in 50, 60 hours. And. And that’s definitely something that still goes on in law firms.
Bert Martinez:
Right? It’s just. Oh, look at it. Oh, look at all the hours he’s putting in. Great. Oh, look, he’s. He’s on his third wife. Oh, but look at all the hours he’s putting in. He’s partner now.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Bert Martinez:
And I think that Covid kind of just woke us up a little bit and said, hey, you know what? We can have a life, too. In fact, we better get a life, because all this is temporary. And. And I think that if you are still under this illusion that you got to work 60, 70, 80 hours a week. To be considered valuable, you definitely need to maybe get a new job. Because to your point, you can work as many hours as you want, you’re not considered any more valuable. At the end of the. At the end of the day, they’re looking at, what did you produce? What did you bring in? You worked.
Bert Martinez:
You worked 70 hours. Why? What did you bring in with those extra. Whatever, 30 hours.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. some point, there’s also diminishing returns.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And so it’s about, what are your deliverables and are you delivering what the organization needs? Now I say to people, are you helping the company make money, save money, or improve efficiencies? And every single day when you go to work, that’s what you should be asking yourself. If you go to work every day and do your job, that’s not doing enough. You have to add value. If your presence doesn’t add value, then your absence won’t mean anything.
Bert Martinez:
Right, Right. All right, I want to get your take on this, because I think, again, guys are much better at communicating their value and. And certainly taking credit for stuff.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Those are two things. Two different things. You said are better at communicating their values. I wasn’t sure I agreed with that. But then when you got to about communicating their worth, that part I do agree with. So. Okay, all right, I want to unpack that.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, so let’s unpack it. So, so, meaning if a guy does something in the office, just about everybody’s going to hear about it. I just closed the biggest deal. This is going to be awesome. Whatever. And in some cases, I’ve dealt with this personally. Somebody was trying to take credit for something I had done, and I just called him on it. You know, made my.
Bert Martinez:
My, at that point, made my supervisor aware. This is reality of things. I think that some females are reluctant to call people out when somebody’s trying to take their credit. What is your take and how should they handle this?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, I think that they are hesitant to call it out. And I think that there’s a couple of ways you can do it. It happens to women all the time in meetings that taking credit, because there’s a term called brocreation, which essentially means a man takes credit for something you just said. Right. They appropriate your idea. And what I tell women is when that happens, you need to redirect the discussion. You need to say something like, you know, Bert, I really appreciate you amplifying what I just said. At the same time, it makes me realize I’d like to add something to it right now that’s the way you do it.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
See, the challenge for women is that we have to tell people to go to hell, so they look forward to the trip. A man can just tell you to go to hell and he gets away with it. We do it, we become the bitch of the year. Right? So we need to find these ways to redirect that aren’t totally offensive. So that’s one thing, one way to do it. Another way to do it is just to be more direct. And for me to come to you and say, you know, this has happened several times now where we were in a meeting and I talked about something I had done, and pretty soon you had taken it as your success. And I don’t know if you noticed it, but I’d like to talk about it and I’d like to let you know about what I need.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Okay? Being able to have a conversation like that, that shows courage. You know, people who, who show courage in a kind way, they’re rewarded.
Bert Martinez:
I’m a big believer that people will treat you like you let them. And if you let them get away with it once, they’re going to do it again. I think you gotta. And I like your approach. Be nice about it. Hey, Bert, you know, this is what’s happened. It’s happened a couple times. And then let them know the consequence.
Bert Martinez:
If it happens again, I’m gonna go to.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, but there’s a middle step. There’s a middle step.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And that middle step is, what do I want? This has happened a couple of times. What would be really helpful to me is if, when I’m talking about my accomplishments, maybe you listen to them and even give a pat on the back for them and say, you know, Lois, yeah, you did do a good job on that. Let me share with you something that I did that was similar. And you can use it as a stepping stone to talk about what you did. And I think by. And see, a consequence can be positive. So a positive consequence could be. I think if we do that for each other, we could be a really unbeatable team.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So the consequence doesn’t always have to be negative. And I think particularly for women, they need to lead with the carrot, not the stick.
Bert Martinez:
I like that very. That’s a very. What do you call it? I’ll say that’s a very powerful leadership tip right there. Everybody. For everybody listening. That’s awesome. So you, you know, again, in. In corporate America, powerful women, strong women, are sometimes, as you mentioned, called bitches.
Bert Martinez:
And I’ve told my girls, it’s okay yeah, right. Sometimes you have to be a bitch. Whatever. You know, just like sometimes I have to be an asshole. It’s just what the reality is. You have to. Again, you can do it in a, in a very firm but friendly way. And they’re going to call you, whatever they’re going to call you, it doesn’t matter.
Bert Martinez:
It should not affect your decision to do what you need to do, because if you don’t do what you need to do again, you’re going to. It could cause you, your job, your take.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, my take is that when people call you A, usually it means you’re doing something right. Not always that. This, that, this word, you know, when we apply it to women, it’s designed to get women to back off. And they usually do. So if you back off when you get called a bitch and you know that you didn’t do anything that, that called for that kind of name calling, then you got to say, I must have done something. I must have threatened this person. That. Because that’s almost always where it comes from.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
It comes from a place of threat, right? And it’s designed to put you back in your place. That’s what it’s designed to do. The other thing, and we haven’t talked about this yet, is gaslighting. That’s another way that men get women to stay in their place, right? So maybe I come to you and I say, I, I’m ready for a promotion. I’ve done this, this and this. I’ve earned it. When can it happen? And you say something to me like, you really think you can do that job? There’s an example of gaslighting, right? And then when I explain to you why I think I can do the job, and then I think why I think you may be wrong, you say, you know, I’m not wrong about this. So then you gaslight me about the gaslighting, right? So women have to recognize that for what it is too.
Bert Martinez:
Now, I do want to say that can happen to males as well, right? You’re, you’re A man comes and tries to get a raise and the boss could say the exact same thing. You think you’re ready for that? Now, it may happen more to women, but it does happen.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Okay, yeah, fair enough. I’m not saying that it doesn’t. I just don’t know any men that it happened to.
Bert Martinez:
Well, I don’t either at the moment. I’m just saying it seems like it could go either way. However, back to the solution, I think is again, standing up for yourself. And if. If you feel strongly enough, then you have to leave.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. Yeah. And I agree with that. I also think that if I feel strongly enough that I owe it to myself to first try to resolve it where I am.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Because sometimes it’s about me. Like, if somebody says, do you really think you’re ready? My response should be, tell me why you think I’m not, because then I’m going to get data that’s going to help me be better. So that’s why I always tell people, when you hear no, when you ask for a promotion or a raise, don’t hear it as a no. Hear it as not yet and find out. Okay, so what do I need to do to get there?
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, I think that not always, but in many instances, you don’t get paid what you deserve. You get paid for what you ask for. And I think that’s why it’s so hard for people. And again, I think it’s very difficult for females, even. Even with my three girls, who I think, for the most part, are pretty fierce or pretty. They’re very strong. They’re in leadership positions. They sometimes struggle asking for what they want.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Mm. And that is very common for women to struggle asking for they want for what they want and also negotiating, because they see negotiation as confrontation. And women do have to negotiate differently than men, and women have to ask differently than men. The rules are just different. They’re just different for how you communicate, how you ask. And when a woman negotiates like a man, she does get called pushy. It’s expected that she’s going to care about what the outcomes are and not just her own. When guys just care about their own outcomes, it’s like, well, that’s just a guy being a guy, right?
Bert Martinez:
Absolutely. And I think that part of the issue. And again, this is changing, but for decades, women many times were paid less because their husband was, quote, the main breadwinner. Right. And so. Oh, you don’t need that. You don’t need that much money because you’re not supporting the family.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right. Yes.
Bert Martinez:
And so I think, again, that’s. That is something that. That’s lingered on. But I want to. I want to back up a little bit.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
But one other thing before you back up on that subject. Women are often paid less because they negotiate for less.
Bert Martinez:
That’s true.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Studies have shown that when men and women go in and negotiate pay for their first job, women often negotiate for less because they don’t want to be seen as pushy, and they don’t want to damage a relationship before it starts. Guys aren’t as worried about that. They just go in and say, hey, look, in the market, this is what this job pays, and I would expect to be paid about that much.
Bert Martinez:
All right, so you said women have to negotiate different. What’s that?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
I said you wanted to go back. I was just kind of guiding you back.
Bert Martinez:
Well, since you. It’s on the same subject there. And that is you said that. That women have to negotiate differently. Give me an example. How do they have to negotiate differently?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. If a guy could come into you and say, I’ve worked here for 18 months now. I was promised a raise at the end of a year. I never did get it. And yet I achieved all my goals, like A, B, C. I think the time has come that I get the raise. Now. A guy could come in and say that, and it sounds fine.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
If I came in and said that, I would sound strident. So what I need to do is value the relationship, and then I can say that. So it would sound something like, I don’t want you to think I’m not grateful for everything you’ve done for me since I’ve been here, because I am. At the same time, when I started 18 months ago, I was told I’d get a raise after a year, and I haven’t gotten it yet, despite the fact that I achieved all my goals. So I’d like to know, how do we make this happen moving forward? It’s the same message said differently.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. And I, I see that. I see that happening. And, and on the same vein there, I think that’s may not be such a bad approach, even for a guy.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Just because it, it values a relationship. And, and, and it’s, uh, what I consider starting off with a. Starting off softly. Right. As opposed to walking in and say, hey, here’s the deal. This is what I was promised. This is what I’ve achieved. Give me my money.
Bert Martinez:
You walking in there with. Again, respecting the relationship. So I think it’s a good approach for either male or female.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, and using a few extra words when I said more words. Soften the message. There’s times when you want to soften the message a little. If I’m going to fire you, I’m not going to call you in and say, guess what? You’re fired. You know, I use a few more words than that.
Bert Martinez:
Yes. All right, let’s talk about this. Is competence overrated?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
No, I don’t think competence can be overrated. I think competence should be at the core of what we expect from everyone. I’m curious, do you think it’s overrated?
Bert Martinez:
No, I think going back to what you said earlier about you have to. Whatever the baseline is, you have to be at least at that baseline.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Oh, but that’s for hard work, not competence.
Bert Martinez:
Well, but still competence. You have to have that baseline as well, right? I mean, if you have to have
Dr. Lois Frankel :
a baseline of competence. Absolutely, absolutely.
Bert Martinez:
So they can say, hey, this person fits our competency, baseline, whatever, and so let’s hire them, or this person is really just going way and above, and so they need to be promoted or they need to be recognized or whatever. I don’t think it’s overrated at all. I think that as we had spoke earlier, I think communication, or lack of communication makes a difference because depending on your department, your organization, you can be overlooked.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And that’s where asking comes in. There was this interesting book that was written by these two professors at. I think it was either Rutgers, it might have been Rutgers or Princeton, it was in New Jersey. And the book is called Women Don’t Ask. And they wrote the book because they had teaching assistant. They had young women come to them saying, you know, the guys are getting all the teaching assistantships, so there’s some bias here. And these two professors said, oh, yeah, look at that, there’s many more men teaching assistants.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
So they did some research and what they found was the guys asked for them. The women weren’t asking for the teaching assistantships they were expecting. If I was a good student and showed competence, I’d be asked to be a teaching assistant. And it’s not how it works. So, yes, competence is a baseline. It’s essential, but it’s another one of those things. But it’s not enough to move ahead. So
Bert Martinez:
do you think overall the system is broken or people just, again, are women just playing it completely wrong?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Both. I think the system is broken. I think that to use the words of, you know, a certain president, it’s rigged, okay? The system is rigged for sure to reward predominantly Caucasian men and predominantly old Caucasian men. And I think there are things that we do as non Caucasian men, and it could be women of color, people of color, just Caucasian women that we do to collude with the system. We collude when we don’t ask for what we want. We collude when we go along to get along. We collude when we don’t communicate the things that are important. When we hide our light under a bushel barrel, when we’re afraid that we’re going to be seen as too aggressive.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
We. You know, I have a little section in my book on code switching, which is something that people of color do when they get to work. Right. They talk a certain way at home, and then they get to work and they switch the code. They act like a whole different person because that’s how you’re supposed to fit in when it’s not genuine and it comes across as not genuine. So I think it’s a little bit of both. I think that we need to stop colluding, and I think the system needs to change. Both.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
I don’t see those as being mutually exclusive.
Bert Martinez:
One of the things that I’ve learned during our. And I don’t know if it’s over, but I’ll say our cancel culture, where if somebody said something and a bunch of people on social media jumped all over them and, oh, this person should be canceled or fired or whatever. What I noticed is that the people who stood up for themselves did fared way better. Most. I don’t think the people who stood for themselves, I don’t think any of them lost their jobs. The people who apologized lost everything. In some cases, they lost their career. They had to start over.
Bert Martinez:
And so my. My point being to all this is that you have to stand up. You have to stand up for what you believe. You have to stand up for yourself because nobody else is going to do it.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, yeah, look. Because look at. You may be referring to Jimmy Kimmel, right? Jimmy Kimmel really stood up for himself, and everybody else stood up for him, too. That’s where relationships come in. People stood up to Disney for Jimmy Kimmel, and that’s what you want people to do for you. It’s like the movie Spartacus. Remember that old movie, Spartacus? I’m not talking.
Bert Martinez:
I am Spartacus.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. I am Spartacus. You want everybody to stand up and say, I am Spartacus, when your leader is getting attacked. So. And that only happens if you build strong relationships. So I think those things do have to go hand in hand. And the people who didn’t stand up for themselves. I’m trying to think of somebody who got canceled that didn’t stand up for themselves.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And I just. I don’t have anybody coming to mind. Do you have somebody?
Bert Martinez:
I don’t. I wasn’t particularly thinking about Jimmy Kimmel because that was, I think, the way it worked out. So many people came to the rescue and stood up for him. I think that was different. I was talking about gonna have to do some research now and and, and, but we’ve seen more than one occasion where somebody says something and they just get creamed. I think that, and, and, and they might have said something that was somewhat offensive. And, and, and, and, and they got creamed and then they tried to back. Backpedal or apologize and they just made things worse than worse.
Bert Martinez:
And that happened multiple times.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yes, yes. Where they particularly the backpedaling. The backpedaling look like excuse and it looks like weakness, doesn’t it?
Bert Martinez:
Yes. And I think that if you come across weak, that’s where it gets you.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. You know, I guess somebody, maybe a better example than Jimmy Kimmel would be Bill Maher. Bill Maher consistently goes toe to toe with everybody. Right? With everybody. He goes toe to toe with people like in his own party. Like we’re being too weak, we’re too this. And yet it works because he is consistently himself. He hasn’t been cancelled.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Well, he was cancelled many years ago, but he hasn’t been cancelled in a long time.
Bert Martinez:
And I like Bill Maher, and I like Bill Maher even though I don’t always agree with what comes out of his mouth, but he stands up for himself and he’s, he’s not opposed to having guests that don’t agree with him.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yes.
Bert Martinez:
And so it does make it really interesting. He is, you know, his show, I think, can be at sometimes very fascinating.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Because of that reason. And I think that there’s a lesson there. One of the things that, that makes real discussion work is when you have, when you’re listening to different points of view and you can go, okay, I see where you’re coming from. I didn’t think about that. Yes. Okay. As opposed to you’re stupid because you don’t believe what I believe.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, exactly. That never works. Does.
Bert Martinez:
Doesn’t work. But guess what? It doesn’t stop either. Social media, for the, for the most part, is people attacking each other again because they have different beliefs. And anyway, it’s.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah. We’ve lost civility and discourse, haven’t we?
Bert Martinez:
We have, we have. And again, our, our current administration encourages
Dr. Lois Frankel :
a lack of tension in discourse.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah,
Bert Martinez:
it is just. Oh, my goodness. All right, so if somebody wants to level up immediately, what’s one behavior they should stop like tomorrow?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
If they want to level up immediately, they would need to stop comparing themselves with others and they would need to start defining their own brand. They need to start saying, what do I want people to say about me when I walk out of a room? And so stop comparing yourself with others. And saying, well, they’re doing this. I do this right. Okay, how brands distinguish us? We are all a brand in the workplace, and they distinguish us from the other brands in the workplace. And if you don’t define your brand, hone your brand, market your brand, why should anybody buy you? And in the workplace, that’s called promoting. It’s called giving perks, training, and so forth. So what I tell people, both men and women, is you need to say to yourself, what do I want someone to say about me when I’m walking out of the meeting? You better decide what you want that to be, because they’re gonna say something about you or they’re gonna think something about you.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
You define the narrative, and you define it in three words. And those three words are different for everybody. It could be. There goes somebody who’s really smart, somebody who’s really prepared, who really listens, who has leadership skills, who has facilitation. So I don’t care what it is. What do you want people to say? You come up with that, and then you act in accordance. Because people don’t know us by our intentions. They know us by our behavior.
Bert Martinez:
Absolutely. And in the marketing world, brands is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
So, right. So Apple. Most people say, Apple’s a great brand. It’s simple. It’s this or that. And again, same thing in the workplace. I like your. Your point there.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, that person is really this. That person is really that. Oh, he or she is all about this, and I think that’s great. All right, so I’m listening to this conversation, and I like what you just said. Okay, I got to start building my brand. So how do I make that shift? What are some of the things I need to do that creates that shift?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Okay, so first of all, as I’ve already said, you look around your workplace and you see, where are the boundaries? Where are the rules? What are the strategies, and who’s winning the game? And if you were to find their brand, what are they doing, and what of those things could you be adding to your brand? So I literally. When I do this exercise with people, I literally have them write down, answer the sentence, there goes a woman, there goes a leader, there goes a person.
Bert Martinez:
Who.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Fill in the blank. You fill in the blank. And by the way, this is an acronym for wallet. Okay? Write it down. Next is Apply observable behaviors. So if I want people to say, I’m always prepared, I better do my research before a meeting. I had better come in with whatever data is necessary and I better be willing to say it and to communicate it when I’m in that meeting. Those are observable behaviors.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Right? The first L stands for look to the edge. Look to the edge of the playing field. What are the people who are winning the game doing and what are they doing that I should make part of my brand? The second L stands for let other people know about it. It does no good to have the best brand in the world and nobody knows about it. This is about marketing yourself. Letting people know what you are capable of. That you know. I’m ready to take on a new assignment, boss.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
I’ve met all my challenges. I would like to learn how to do this next. Okay, so let other people know about it. The E stands for elicit feedback. Every brand does market research. How do you hone your brand if you don’t know what people are saying about you in the workplace? It’s called 360 feedback. Right? So you elicit feedback and then the T stands for treat others with abundance. Always make abundance part of your brand because the more you give away, the more you get.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
And so there’s plenty to go around for everybody. Don’t hoard good feedback. Don’t hoard information. Don’t hoard good feelings. Don’t hoard friendship. There’s plenty to go around. Make abundance part of your brand. And that’s, that’s how I tell people to build their brand.
Bert Martinez:
And it’s wallet.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Wallet.
Bert Martinez:
And what’s the W stand for?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Write it down.
Bert Martinez:
Write it down.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Apply actionable behaviors.
Bert Martinez:
Apply actionable behavior. Look to the edge.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Look to the edge. Let other people know about it. Elicit feedback. Treat people with abundance. You do these things, you are going to widen your wallet.
Bert Martinez:
That is a great acronym and it’s like, like all acronyms supposed to help you memorize that. Hey Lois. So if somebody wanted to find out more about you, if somebody wanted to find out more about your books or hire you as a speaker or coach, where should they go?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Yeah, I would love people to connect with me on LinkedIn because on LinkedIn I give regular coaching tips. I share articles, all career related. Sometimes I give a political opinion, but that’s just because I can’t stop myself. But, but it’s mostly career related. I can also be found at my website, which is doctorlois Frankel D R L O I S F R A N K E L where you can learn more about me. You can contact me. There’s also a link where you can buy my books.
Bert Martinez:
All right, so if you were going to tell somebody about our conversation today, what is it that you’d want somebody to know and walk away from? Walk away with?
Dr. Lois Frankel :
What do I want them to walk away with? You’re in charge of your life and your career. Don’t give it up to anybody else. There’s nobody who’s going to take better care of you than you’re going to take care of yourself. Throughout this past hour and a half, in addition to my opinions about things which you may, people may or may not agree with, which is okay with me, I also gave you some good, solid tips for how you can start managing your career better. I’d like you to go back, listen to this again, and start writing down the tips that you agree to do, just two or three of them. You start doing those two or three things, you’ll see your career and your life start to shift.
Bert Martinez:
Louis, thank you so much for stopping by. I enjoyed our conversation so very much.
Dr. Lois Frankel :
Thank you so much. I enjoyed it as well.
