LISTEN HERE:
Bert Martinez:
Chris, I need $5 million or you’ll never see your kid again.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, well, he hasn’t been taking out the trash lately. It’s your problem. All right.
Bert Martinez:
Did not expect that one.
Chris Voss :
Okay.
Bert Martinez:
Must be a teenager because, you know, teenagers.
Chris Voss :
All right. Yeah, you got him. You get him back when he’s about 25.
Bert Martinez:
Exactly.
Chris Voss :
I’ll talk again.
Bert Martinez:
Absolutely. All right. My guest today is Chris Voss. We’re going to be talking about Never Split the Difference. This is a game changer. If you haven’t read it, you need to have it in your library. If you read it, you probably need to read it a few more times. I think total time I’ve read this book is, I wanna say about 10 times.
Chris Voss :
Nice.
Bert Martinez:
Um, and I do cheat a little bit cause I have the audio as well. So I think if you include the audio and the reading, I’m probably somewhere in the 15 or 20 times cuz it’s, It’s— there’s always one more little thing. There’s— oh, I forgot about that. Oh, that reminds me, I got to get better at that. One of the things that I wanted to ask you was when you were— I don’t know, because you started off as a beat cop in Kansas.
Chris Voss :
Kansas City, Missouri.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, Kansas City, Missouri. Yeah. Good old— yeah. And so were you— what were you thinking? I mean, here you are, you’re starting your career off. And is FBI or negotiator or anything like that even in your— close to being in the front of your thoughts there?
Chris Voss :
Not even remotely. Like, I wanted to be— I want to be a cop who was a good cop, made a difference, creative, innovative. I didn’t realize it now. Then a maverick attitude. Entrepreneur.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, okay.
Chris Voss :
Entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs. Are in bureaucracies are often the most valuable and the least liked by upper management because you’re never a great maverick. You never know what they’re going to do, but they’re going to hit the target.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
And I saw a movie, The Supercops, two New York City cops, wildly creative. Looking back on it now, very unpopular with management because these guys were out doing wild stuff. Getting, getting, getting a job done. Community loved them, having a great time. And that’s kind of what I wanted to be. And, uh, and it, you know, if you’re hitting the target— I would describe myself as a loose cannon that always hit the target— well, then some, some of your bosses are just going to relax and be good with that no matter what. You know, way on down the line in New York, uh, I left New York because I had a boss that didn’t care that you hit the target. He wanted to know about the shot being fired first. There can be people in charge like that. You just, the two of you just don’t match up. That’s all.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, and I want to talk about that a little bit more because in the book you talk about, and I think this is one of my, one of the many ahas I got from the book. It’s not the person across from you that’s the problem. It’s the situation.
Chris Voss :
The adversary is the situation.
Bert Martinez:
But I’ve come across some people that are— yeah, right. That add to the problem. They add this to the situation, right?
Chris Voss :
They’re just like, yeah, yeah.
Bert Martinez:
So, all right, let me ask you this. When you look back at your career, is there a moment that still lives with you, like emotionally, not just a mental memory, but like when you look back at a case, is there one that like sticks out that really just I don’t know, stays with you emotionally?
Chris Voss :
Oh, there are plenty like that. Yeah. I mean, if you’re in hostage negotiation, as a general rule, hostage negotiators are successful 93-ish percent of the time.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, okay.
Chris Voss :
Which is a really high success rate. But then by definition, that means stuff’s going to go bad, right? If you do it enough and stuff goes bad, and then when it goes bad, goes bad in a big way. And then you either learn from it. You know, you win or you learn, right? Some— if you don’t learn, then you go do something else. And the first difficult learning moment, a Burnham-Sibero case, uh, 2 out of 3 Americans were killed in that. Now, a bunch of Filipinos were killed too, right? And, you know, Americans coming into another country, we’re all bent out of shape over the American lives at risk, and attempt to diminish, make, you know, the locals look like we don’t care about their people. A bunch of Filipinos got killed. But Guillermo Cibarro was executed by the terrorists about 3 weeks in, before we had the opportunity to try to stabilize the situation.
And then at about 13 months in, Martin Burnham was killed by friendly fire in a botched rescue attempt. Gracia Burnham was wounded. She lived. And about a month earlier, I was sure we were going to get him out, and bad guys reneged on the deal. And I still remember the moment when I got called about 5 o’clock in the morning. Hostage negotiator in the Philippines called and said Martin Burnham is dead. You know, it was hard for me until I realized I got nothing on what the family went through, right? And I wasn’t my father, wasn’t my spouse, wasn’t my brother. So, and I had to put in perspective after that.
Chris Voss :
But yeah, that was, that was a low point. And then there was a series of kidnappings in Iraq. Al-Qaeda was killing everybody got their hands on, and those were ugly. So, but you got to learn. I mean, you got to get better. You gotta learn to get out. And I always wanted to learn. I didn’t want the death of any hostage to have not contributed to saving another hostage’s life.
Chris Voss :
And each and every time, the Burnham case in particular, Martin Burnham’s death, the amount that we learned and made ourselves learn as a result to keep anything like that from ever happening again, a bunch of lives got saved.
Bert Martinez:
Right. It’s interesting. Another aha that I got from the book, and I’ve gotten it over and over again, is this thing— you call it tactical empathy.
Chris Voss :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
And the more I study empathy, the more I see how important it is. And for those who follow Christianity or the Bible, Jesus Christ had this massive— he’s known for this massive amount of empathy. And then, again, after reading the book multiple times, as I go through different things and I see different— whether it’s a simple contract negotiation or whatever it is— I see where empathy, the use of empathy, becomes paramount. And really, it’s the old saying, if somebody likes you, they’re more apt to trust you and you can get things done. But empathy really seems to smooth over or grease the wheel, so to speak. Empathy is this kind of a magic character.
Chris Voss :
It really is kind of a mystical thing. And I wouldn’t just confine it to Christianity. I think all, you know, three major religions, all, you know, Abrahamic, if you will. Yeah. Jewish, Islam, Christianity. There’s tremendous amount of empathy in all three. Different takes on it, which in my view makes them all very complementary.
Bert Martinez:
Sure.
Chris Voss :
But there is something magical about feeling understood. There’s something about both feeling understood and intense curiosity. We’re getting ready, we’re having our annual summit in Dallas March 2nd and 3rd, which we’re about 10 days away from right now. And the night before, we’re giving away for the first time ever Global Negotiator Awards.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, nice.
Chris Voss :
For people who’ve done just amazing things. Almost all in business. But one of the guys were given— were given a Lifetime Achievement Award is Darryl Davis. Now, Darryl Davis, a Black musician, keyboard player, played with Chuck Berry, has a collection of Ku Klux Klan robes from Imperial Wizards and Grand Dragons that have given him their robes because their friendship with him has gotten them out of the Klan.
Bert Martinez:
That’s incredible.
Chris Voss :
And what Darryl has is this intense curiosity. Curiosity is an irresistible force, which then leads to empathy because, like, I’m trying to understand you, right? Darryl’s approach is like, how can you hate me when we’ve never met?
Bert Martinez:
Right?
Chris Voss :
And he approaches it not as an accusation, just with deep curiosity. And we’re going to— and I’ve interviewed Darryl a couple of times. Haven’t met him in person yet. Looking forward to seeing him in person. He’s been on Rogan talking about it.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
I came back around to recontacting him recently because Bono’s on Rogan and Bono’s talking about him. Wow. And so then, yeah, you know, I talked to Darryl a couple of years ago. Let me talk to him again. Let’s get him back. Did an interview for our platform within our Black Swan Negotiation community, which anybody anybody can have access to. And it’s just— it’s deep curiosity. And curiosity is an irresistible force.
Chris Voss :
I can sit down with anybody, and if I’m just deeply curious, deeply interested in you, like, you’re going to tell me everything, right?
Bert Martinez:
I love that.
Chris Voss :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Well, and it goes back to when you sincerely care about somebody— or let me rephrase it, uh, you become a great conversationalist when you’re getting people to talk about themselves, right?
Chris Voss :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
You have that curiosity and they go, oh man, that, that Chris or that Bert, that guy is such a wonderful person. And all they do is talk about themselves.
Chris Voss :
Robert Greene’s book, Laws of Seduction, I think it is. Read Greene’s stuff. It’s good stuff. And he talks about the charmer. And there’s a quote in there that I love, and I’m paraphrasing, but this lady says, you know, I met this guy at a cocktail party and I thought he was the most interesting guy I’d ever met. And then I met another guy at a cocktail party and I thought I was the most interesting person he ever met. Second dude’s a charmer.
Bert Martinez:
I love that. Not to get political, but what are your thoughts with all the changes at the FBI?
Chris Voss :
Unfortunately, nature regenerates itself through a forest fire. And a lot of what’s going on right now is a forest fire. And it’s tragic. And there are casualties along the way. But the Bureau’s a government bureaucracy. And bureaucracies instead of holding people accountable, want to add rules right now. I remember the workers, the investigators, the guys that made cases talking about that there was too much bureaucracy when I joined in the 1980s.
Bert Martinez:
Wow.
Chris Voss :
And it didn’t lessen over the years. And the rules just kept piling on and piling on. And government people love to point fingers, government bureaucrats. Love to point fingers without holding anybody accountable.
Bert Martinez:
Sure.
Chris Voss :
So this happened. Well, it wasn’t actually anybody’s fault. What we need are more rules. And it just— it’s suffocating. Now, I don’t know enough about Kash Patel to know whether or not he has the ability to lead a law enforcement agency. But if he comes in with a mandate to start burning out the brush and getting rid of the bureaucratic rules, I am all for that. And anybody wants to make cases, it’s for that. I used to— I remember my last assignment when I was really in charge of all our international kidnapping negotiations.
Like, I ignored bureaucratic nonsense. And he used to— this guy I worked for, he was number 2 in charge of the unit for a while, and then he was in charge. Used to drive him crazy because we’d have these inboxes. We get everything in an inbox and paper, and you’re supposed to read and initial to show that you read it. And I never read any of that stuff. And my inbox was overflowing. And, and he, and he used to bring that whole stack of papers to me and put it on my desk. And as soon as he left, I’d shred half of it or I’d put it back.
And I never got in trouble for ignoring all that nonsense. Right now, not everybody was willing to do that. You know, I was, I was focused on my mission, period. Period. And every now and then the bureaucrats get a little upset with me for not proving that I read the new, the latest administrative bullshit. But my bosses, by and large, as long as I was out executing my mission— number one, the mission to protect and defend Americans was number one with, with everything that I did— then they gave me a lot of latitude.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, because I think at the end of the day, you can follow all the rules, but if you have poor results, that’s not going to help your case.
Chris Voss :
Well, it’s— who’s the management guru from the 1970s? I think of his name, everybody. Drucker. Yeah. Drucker said, you know, the worst thing you can do is optimize the unnecessary. Yes. Yes. Which is kind of what Elon Musk has lived by, which is why he got more rockets in space than anybody else does, right? Getting rid of the unnecessary. But most bureaucracies, it’s easy to optimize the unnecessary because you’re not going to get criticized for it, but you got nothing done, right? And bureaucracies over the years continue to optimize the unnecessary. Or sticking your neck out.
I mean, I’m on, I’m on a little bit of a ramble right now, but it has to do with a lot the way I’m running my company and the way you should approach negotiations. I recently was reading a book about Pixar, Creativity, Inc. Okay. And the guy wrote the book, CEO, after all the years, one of the things he said is it’s cheaper to fix problems than to prevent them. Now, that’s scary, right? Your bureaucracies want to do nothing but prevent problems. But it’s cheaper to fix them than prevent them, which by definition means you’re going to encounter problems. And finger-pointing scares the hell out of people, and it flips them into preventing instead of fixing.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
And again, Elon Musk, a great example, because blowing up rockets all over the place. Yeah. And thank God SpaceX is not a publicly traded company. In the past, because then, you know, the shareholders would be up in arms and the Wall Street hecklers, the finance hecklers, would do everything they can, which they— you know, the hecklers are after him anyway, right? But they’d scare people in trying to hold them accountable. But blowing up rocket after rocket— now, nobody ever got killed. And if you take a close look at the entrepreneurs who’ve tried to get into space, some of them got people killed.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, they did.
Chris Voss :
Elon hasn’t got anybody killed. But that approach to blowing up rockets, he’s reusing rockets. They’re coming in, they’re landing on their bases just like perfect, perfect landings. And then last year, the greatest example of it was, was that Boeing strands astronauts in a space station because their bureaucracy preventing problems. Right. And they’re so scared that their rocket, that Elon’s got to go up and rescue them. So it’s scary to take the approach, it’s cheaper to fix problems than to prevent them. But you advance your business, your negotiation, your humankind with that attitude.
Bert Martinez:
Right. You know, Elon, I think, is a great example of, of not being afraid to take risks no matter how big they are, because again, I think it was 3 or 4 rockets blew up. And I think it was the 4th one that landed the way it was supposed to or functioned the way it’s supposed to. And that’s when they got— he got that multibillion-dollar contract from NASA. And then one of my favorite stories about him— talk about having that deep internal mission— is that here he was, 2 and a half years behind schedule delivering Teslas, and people are suing him. You made all the hecklers and the non— you know, the Everybody’s coming after him. He’s going through a divorce. He’s working 80 hours a week.
Bert Martinez:
He’s sleeping at the shop. And he says, I’m not giving up. This is— they’re going to be delivered. And eventually they were. And of course, things turned around. His stock goes from a $2 or $3 stock to a $20 to a $30 to, you know, eventually hits $2,000. And that is such a huge difference because, again, in a bureaucracy, you’re trying to avoid the finger pointing. Nobody wants to take the risk because if they take risk, they get slammed.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, yeah. All that. The rocket blew up.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, it’s your fault.
Chris Voss :
You know, and they even— they even get funny. What they call it, a rapid unscheduled disassembly. That’s right. It’s funny stuff. Yeah, I love that.
Bert Martinez:
All right. Never Split the Difference.
Chris Voss :
Never Split the Difference.
Bert Martinez:
What— what about this title that— that you said, okay, yeah, this is the title I want for the book because it encapsulates What? What were you thinking when you chose that title?
Chris Voss :
Well, you know, it was Tahl Raz. Tahl Raz, a genius business book writer. I was lucky to get him. Like, there ain’t nobody can write a business book like Tahl Raz. And I found out the hard way because I’ve been supportive of other books and just see the difference. So, had a completely different title when we, you know, did the book proposal. Another guy worked on a book proposal. I think— I can’t remember what we call it, like Dangerous Negotiation, something like that, right? I remember what it was.
Chris Voss :
And so then we get— then we— publisher wants us to work with somebody else other than who wrote the proposal. And I’m like, well, we got a shot at Tal Ross. He’s the best out there. So start working with Tal, and he says, okay, this ain’t the title. The title for this book will occur to me while we’re writing it.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
You know, and when I get deep into your thinking, you and your son Brandon, and I do my research like Tal reads, like the— like he— like the Library of Alexandria. He’d go in there and read that baby, read every book out there. In-depth researcher, which is one of the differences between him and most ghostwriters. Most ghostwriters ain’t going to read anything.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, they’re not going to research.
Chris Voss :
Tall knocks himself out. He says, at some point in time, the title of the book is going to occur to me. And so we’re probably about halfway through the process, and he says, it’s Never Split the Difference. That’s what you guys are about. And I’m like, yeah, boom, bang, that’s it. And so that’s— it was Tall’s contribution from an in-depth, insightful understanding of the way we approach negotiation.
Bert Martinez:
Man, that’s—
Chris Voss :
that is— that is way cool.
Bert Martinez:
I love the fact that he says it’ll come to me later, but this ain’t it. Yeah, that’s from years of experience. He knew immediately that this is not the title.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. Yeah. And he’s an artist. I mean, he’s an artist. He’s a technician. He’s everything. And that’s why it’s— the book sells well. We recently— my team just put out a book called Fight Less, Win More.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
Which I supported the process. I wrote the foreword to Derek Gaunt, Jonathan Smith on my team. Pull the book together. And it’s designed to be a supplement for Never Split the Difference. So if you got Never Split the Difference, you buy Fight Less, Win More, and you toggle back and forth between the two. A friend of mine, John Richardson, teaches negotiation at Harvard and MIT. He and I taught a negotiation course together at Harvard a long time ago. John says, yeah, you know, um, Fight Less, Win More is a great read.
Chris Voss :
It’s a little more dense and it’s not as easy to read as Never Split the Difference. And I’m like, yeah, it’s Tal Ross. Tal writes a readable book. Yes. And it takes somebody who’s as good as Tal, as much of an artist, to make it a fun— it’s a fun read.
Bert Martinez:
It is a fun read. It’s entertaining. I mean, there are so many aspects of this book that there’s the human element of the book itself, the hostage stories that you tell. That in itself could be little movies because, you know, is it José and Julie out in the jungle of Ecuador? Yeah, that’s to me just awesome story there. And then you mentioned the Burnham case and it just there’s so many things that you go like, wow, you’re reading the story. I’m going, okay, I want to see how he’s going to convert this to something I can use in my life. And then it happens. And that’s what makes it to me, you know, even more fun.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. Yeah. Well, like the Burnham case, it was one of the long— not the longest, but it was one of the longer cases. It was 13 months.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
And I got into describing the whole thing to Toller and I’m like, How’s he going to boil this down? And he does. Yeah, he does. He just boils it down brilliantly.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, it’s wonderful because the book at first, Never Split the Difference, comes across as, oh, it’s a business book or negotiation book. And it says right there in the subtitle, negotiate as if your life depended on it. So you immediately go, okay, this is a negotiation slash business book, but really And you correct me if I’m wrong, it’s a— it’s, it’s really about understanding how humans function and think.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, that’s absolutely what it is. And so many people have used it in so many different ways. I think that’s why it continues to sell.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, I have to say this, and I can say this because my wife is not going to watch this, but don’t tell my wife I said this.
Chris Voss :
All right. That’s going to get back to her.
Bert Martinez:
But from, you know, there’s always been this thing out there about guys don’t understand women. And I think for the most part, that’s probably true. This book will help you just with the— and we’re going to get into a little bit more, but sounds like, seems like, looks like to me, those— that was, I don’t know, improved my marriage substantially. When my wife talks, instead of me saying what I would normally say, I would Well, honey, it sounds like, it seems like, and it’s a game changer.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. Well, and that’s a testament to you in the belief of the value of the relationship.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, thank you. I’ll have to, I’ll save that clip and show it to my wife.
Chris Voss :
Look what Chris says.
Bert Martinez:
All right. And this is something, again, that was a big aha for me is you challenge the idea of compromise. And I want you to talk about this because the book example is awesome. But you really hate compromise when it comes to a negotiation When it comes to anything.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
Compromise is by definition lose-lose.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
If compromise was good, we would admire politicians. We’d say, thank God for politicians. Aren’t they wonderful?
Bert Martinez:
Again?
Chris Voss :
Yeah. They’ve all made our lives so much better. Oh, thank you, Jesus, for politicians. Now, you know, and back in last century, like ’70s or ’60s, when everybody’s reading newspapers and they had these cartoons that were one-panel cartoons. Yes. And it was one I remember called The Lockhorns, which was about a husband and a wife. And the husband says to his wife, why don’t we compromise? That way we’ll both be unhappy. So you compromise your principles, compromise your integrity, compromise the strength of the apparatus that’s holding the wheels on your car.
Chris Voss :
It’s going to go bad.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Voss :
Now, why is it— now, the spirit of collaborating is important. Yes. And there are three C words: collaboration, cooperation, and compromise. And you should be collaborative. Now, if you’re cooperative, it means you’re a little bit passive and you’re going to give in. Collaborative is you’re going to— you’re going to hold still to your values. You want— you want to work with people. And you got to find the fit.
Chris Voss :
But then the emotional aspect of compromise— and there’s no way around this because we’re human. And Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize in 2002, behavioral economics, prospect theory, which boiled down to a loss stings twice as much as an equivalent gain.
Bert Martinez:
A loss.
Chris Voss :
A loss. Stings twice as much as an equivalent gain. A loss of $5 feels like a loss of $10. Yes. Now, I actually remember listening to Professor Kahneman talking about this, and he said, you know, actually Amos and I thought it was more like 5 times as worse, but we put it down to twice as worse because we wanted fewer arguments from people. So And you ask athletes, Super Bowl losers.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
You know, the sports commentators say losing the Super Bowl feels worse than winning it. And they’ll go like, yeah. So what does this mean? Loss is outsized. So if we compromise, we meet in the middle.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
Let’s say we’re doing it genuinely, not even manipulatively. Most of it is manipulation. But so, all right, so there’s a difference of 10 between the two of us. I’m going to give in 5. Try to make the deal. The problem, because I’m human and I’m emotional, I’m going to feel like I gave 10, which then your concession feels unfair to me, which then is going to leave a negative residue in my enthusiasm for the implementation of our deal. Or maybe I’ll stick to the deal strictly as prescribed, which means there are always unanticipated problems. And due to my resentment over feeling a loss, then I’m gonna keep my mouth shut when unanticipated problems come up.
Chris Voss :
I can see the train coming at you, but our deal doesn’t address the train, so I haven’t violated anything in our deal by letting this train run you down. I’ve stuck to the deal, right? And so compromise creates resentment. It’s lose-lose no matter what. And if you define negotiation as I do, and in my sense from your discussion with your relationship with your wife, as you do, which is a long-term relationship of trust. Yes. I want to have a long-term prosperous relationship, and resentment does not create a long-term prosperous relationship. So compromise is a recipe for resentment, which means we’re going to like each other continually less as time goes on.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, and I can see that because you’re right, they don’t articulate that bitterness. It just builds and builds and builds.
Chris Voss :
And then, and then when I let you get caught off guard because I resent you then you’re like, what the hell are you doing?
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
You know, why did you let that happen?
Bert Martinez:
I thought we were friends.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. So, I mean, it’s just— it’s a downward spiral. Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
So when you’re negotiating with somebody who has equivalent skills as you do, has the same amount of experience, uh, does that make it go easier Harder or no difference?
Chris Voss :
Easier. Because the longer, the longer you negotiate, the more you realize, as we were saying earlier, the adversary is the situation.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
Goldman Sachs executive, long time, a statement was attributed to him, Gus Levy, I think the guy’s name was, greedy, yes, but long-term greedy.
Bert Martinez:
Say that again.
Chris Voss :
Greedy, but long-term greedy.
Bert Martinez:
Greedy, but long-term greedy.
Chris Voss :
Which means the more we collaborate, the The more we collaborate, the more money I make.
Bert Martinez:
Gotcha.
Chris Voss :
So it’s hard to make the step from being a cutthroat to collaborative. I don’t know what it is in people who manage to make the steps. One of the guys that we’ve been coaching for a long time, he’s actually going to be one of the recipients of the Global Negotiator Award. His name is Ray. He said to me several years ago, I made more money being collaborative than I ever made being cutthroat. I was good at being cutthroat.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Voss :
So you begin to realize that there’s always a better deal if we collaborate. I’m going to make more money if I can get my ego out of the way. If I can get out of the way of needing to beat you, right? I’m going to make more money.
Bert Martinez:
And I think that the media has a little bit to do with that, because when you look at these movies, it’s always the guy who crushes the other guy in the negotiation. And saves the company or whatever, and the no take no prisoner kind of attitude.
Chris Voss :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
And I think that part of negotiation has that propaganda built into it. The other side, I’ve been in negotiations with an insurance company. And I remember that the way the lady set it up, she goes, The best settlements are when we both walk away slightly unhappy. And I thought, wow, we’re just, you know, setting up to, for, I guess, to lose, right? I mean, it’s versus collaborating. And that’s one of the things that in the book, you don’t call them adversaries or opponents, you call them counterparts.
Chris Voss :
Counterparts.
Bert Martinez:
Because a counterpart you want to collaborate with.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, you’re going to do better. You’re going to make more money. And so there’s good and bad to this whole residue around negotiation, that it’s cutthroat, that it’s win-lose. The more people that do that, and there’s going to be a segment that never go away, ever. Two things are true. There’s going to be those people are never going to go away. And no matter who you are, you’re dealing with somebody who’s read my book. Mm-hmm.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
Because the book sold 3 million copies domestically and over 5 million globally. You’re dealing with somebody who’s read my stuff. There is no way around it right now. Fortunately, this means they’re going to want to make deals with you so you can be relatively unguarded and it’s going to be a better deal and you’re not even going to know it. Now, if you had the skills to add in, you get 2x. Better deal, and you’re going to earn the other side’s trust faster, and you’re going to get to the best outcome possible quicker. But the cutthroat thing means also— you gave the insurance company example. Insurance company people are emotionally vulnerable to someone who wants to use tactical empathy.
Chris Voss :
Like, they don’t get it from anybody. Everybody that talks to him hates him, right?
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
Everybody that talks to him is trying to exploit him, trying to lie to him, trying to bamboozle him, calling him names. This whole negative attacking approach. And what you really want with the skills when you got a cutthroat adversary on the other side— procurement is very much like this in a business world— what you want them to do is make their bonus on somebody else. Right, because you were the only human they dealt with, and they’re willing to make the great deal with you because in point of fact, they’re human beings on the other side too. 95% of them want to collaborate. They got put in a position where there’s— they get a lot of pressure to minimize what the other side gets. And you know, that doesn’t make them feel great, right? You know, the vast majority of people don’t want to make a living off other people’s misery, but they got their future on the line, they got their bonuses on the line, they got a boss breathing down their neck. So let you be the person they don’t make their bonus on.
Chris Voss :
They’re happy to do it if they feel this two-way street of collaboration.
Bert Martinez:
I’m reminded of the fact that you look at the personal injury industry, it’s lawyers who, because of the way they were trained, have no idea of tactical empathy. Right. They’re dealing with, as you said, these insurance adjusters who have their stuff, their agendas as well. And in a lot of cases, in some of these big law firms that you see advertising on TV, there’s a paralegal in between that. And that paralegal has marching orders and they have very little wiggle room. And so just listening to you, you know, talking about what the adjuster is going through, they’re getting these cold letters from the personal injury attorney side saying, you know, you owe our client all this money, you know, give us this money. It’s what they deserve, blah, blah, blah.
Chris Voss :
Being attacked.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, they’re being attacked all the time.
Chris Voss :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And it’s incredible. So, yeah, I love that. The fact that you come in there with some empathy and they go, wow, this person is treating me like a human being because that’s going to stand out because you know that 99% of people don’t do that.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, that’s incredible. Yeah. I mean, ask themselves, what are they saying to themselves when they pick up the phone? Typically what they’re saying to themselves is Nobody in my company appreciates what I’m going through, right? So when they say hello, sometimes I’ll say, you’ve got to be the least appreciated person in your organization. You get everybody calls, gives you a hard time, calls you names. You’re taking heat on behalf of the organization for problems that you didn’t create. Everybody’s blaming you. And you can just instantly They’re like, wow, this person gets me. Yeah, yeah.
Chris Voss :
Now they’re not— now they’re going to— they’re going to do what they can for you. There’s a saying I like is never be mean to somebody who could hurt you by doing nothing. Yes. So the flip side of that is what could they do for you if they felt like it? Usually a lot. Yes. I love that.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, I love that. One of my favorite things that I’ve learned from the book is how am I supposed to do that?
Chris Voss :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And this works so well. It is, it is incredible. That was the first thing that I put in, put into our organization. When somebody started asking for discounts or this or that, how are we supposed to do that? How are we supposed to do that when everybody else pays this amount? You know, how are we supposed to do that and be fair to the rest of our customers? You know? And so it just became this, the go-to phrase. That was the first thing that we rolled out in, in, uh, nice. It is, it is just a killer. And I want you to tell the story about this cuz it’s a great story in the book where. The drug dealer gets his girlfriend kidnapped by another drug dealer.
Bert Martinez:
And it just— it was really by chance that this one of your coworkers said, hey, you got to listen to this. It’s kind of funny. Yeah. And it gave you that aha moment about how.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. One of my greatest lessons that was taught to me by a drug dealer. Yeah. And, you know, they say when the student is ready, the master appears, right? Yes. So the Bernardo Cibarro case, suddenly in the middle of the case, we find out that Martin Bernardo has been overheard on a phone. Like, it blew my mind. Like, first of all, who’s he talking to?
Bert Martinez:
Right?
Chris Voss :
Because he ain’t out in the jungle ordering Uber Eats, right? He calling for pickup.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Voss :
And so, you know, I asked my boss. It was a lot I didn’t know at the time. He says the only time somebody gets a hostage on the phone is for proof of life. And I’m like, we never get anybody on the phone. We don’t even try to get them on the phone, right? Like, who the hell got him on the phone? And who’s trying to get proof of life on my hostages? That’s one of the things in that case that was just a train wreck. 9 different ways from Sunday while the thing was going down. We had competing buyers. Corrupt politicians, like chaos beyond chaos.
Chris Voss :
And so that really stuck in my craw. Like, I’m supposed to be one of the greatest negotiators in the world. I never got a hostage on the phone. Like, what the hell? And so then this bad-on-bad kidnapping in Pittsburgh, drug dealer on drug dealer. Drug dealer grabs another drug dealer’s girlfriend. Like, when people are backed into a corner in the United States, they go to the FBI.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, what else are you gonna do?
Chris Voss :
Drug dealer comes here, my girlfriend’s been kidnapped. You know, so the negotiators are riding around in a car with this guy, and on his own, the drug dealer— because they got no proof of life— and he just says, hey, dog, how do I know she’s alive? And there’s a long hesitation on the other end of the phone, and a drug dealer comes on with a completely different tone of voice. The upper hand has just been shifted from one side to the other. The kidnapper no longer has the upper hand. He doesn’t know it. And he goes, well, I’ll, I’ll put her on the phone. And that was when I could just— I’m like, that’s it. What’s the reasonable question that’s inescapable, right? And how can it be asked deferentially? How and what questions are there? There’s great power in deference.
Chris Voss :
And you ask somebody how— people love to say, tell you how to do something, what to do. So it feels deferential and everything is shifted in that moment. And that was one like, that is what we’ve been missing. We shifted our proof of life and instantly had massive changes in our outcomes, in our cases. Because of old proof of life was a bank security question. You know, what was your first grade teacher’s name? But how am I supposed to know? How do I know they’re alive? The how question. How am I supposed to do that? How am I supposed to pay if I don’t know they’re alive? And the kidnapper’s got to go like, hmm, that’s actually a legitimate question, right?
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, I love that. And, and like you said, it shifts that, that the leverage goes from this side to this side.
Chris Voss :
Secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control.
Bert Martinez:
The illusion of control. Is that the DJ, the DJ, FM DJ voice?
Chris Voss :
That was a little bit of late night. We’ll talk about more about that.
Bert Martinez:
But tonality is important.
Chris Voss :
Derrick Gaunt, we’ve been struggling with saying it right and author, co-author of Fight Less, Win More, head of my coaching and training in my company. Derek finally said, the tone sets the tone.
Bert Martinez:
Oh, that’s an easy one to remember.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, the tone sets the tone. And of our list of skills, we’ve struggled back and forth with whether or not we’re going to call tonality the 9th skill. And it is. Yeah. And with a great tone, I could get away with almost anything.
Bert Martinez:
Right, right. When, when people think about what they do in walking through their everyday life. Right, right. I think the book does a great job of bringing this up and saying you’re already doing some of these things, but you’re just not aware of them.
Chris Voss :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
And tonality is one of them, because whether it’s your wife or your spouse or your mom uses a certain tone, you know that she either loves you or she’s about to yell at you. Yeah, right. That tonality is important. And we do it with our children. And, and, and, and you just now just said, you know, when you’re going to ask a how question, you do it with the differential tone, you know. And so it’s important. This tonality thing is, is probably just as important as the questions you ask.
Chris Voss :
And if you’re going to make a mistake, you can make a mistake on a question. But if you got a great tone, you can get away with it.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
Yes.
Bert Martinez:
I had a client years ago and she had the most adorable Southern accent and she knew about it.
Chris Voss :
And she probably smiled and laughed all the time.
Bert Martinez:
All the time. And when when she wasn’t getting her way or when she saw the end, she would, you know, she would in a kind, fun tone, she would say, don’t make me use my accent. And people would exactly would laugh and chuckle and she would get her way.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, women have some advantages in negotiation. And on Shark Tank, Lori Greiner’s got this great tone, and there are no shortage of times when she tells the other male sharks basically shut the fuck up, right? But she— she— I heard her say one time, she said, just sit back and watch me negotiate.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
Which is shut up, right? You know, STFU. Let me talk. Stop interrupting me. But she’s got this wonderful tone and she’s constantly shutting them up.
Bert Martinez:
And I think she’s gotten, I think, the top 2 or 3 biggest deals on Shark Tank.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, I wouldn’t be surprised.
Bert Martinez:
The Scrub Daddy is one of them. Yeah, I can’t remember the other, the other 2. But yeah, that’s a great point. If anybody watches Shark Tank, She is very, very respectful, has a great tone while the other guys are— usually it’s the guys, the—
Chris Voss :
well, you know. Yeah, majority of them are guys anyway. So they’re going to get into a scrum. You know, Barbara does a great job also. But, you know, if they’re going to— if there’s going to be a scrum, you know, Laurie’s probably the best at getting the rest of them to shut up.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that Barbara has a great flirting power.
Chris Voss :
Well, yeah, she’s, she’s, she’s a great little flirt. But Barbara’s tough chick. Oh, I mean that in every— someone I remarkably, I admire. Absolutely.
Bert Martinez:
No, she’s—
Chris Voss :
the hell out of her.
Bert Martinez:
She is tough as nails.
Chris Voss :
She come up from, from old school stuff, New York real estate, very tough. I was on effectively Clubhouse was kind of like this live podcast during the pandemic and she’s on and I’m on and we’re doing a thing on negotiation. It’s not one-on-one. You know, I’m lucky to be involved in anything she’s involved in. And she says, let me give you a phrase that I’ve never regretted saying. And I remember thinking, like, I got to know what this is. And she says, I need some time to think about that. And I thought, wow, that’s genius.
Chris Voss :
So yeah, she’s, she’s really smart.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, yeah, they’re, they’re all, they’re all good. I thought I was glad to see them cast females in there. And you’re right, they each have their own strength, their But yeah, I love Barbara.
Chris Voss :
She showed up for that too.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
I mean, she got, you know, they originally turned her down like 2 or 3 times and she’s like, no, I’m just— she’s, you know what, I’ll be there. You know, which is kind of like, I’m going to make you fire me in person. And they’re going to reject me. It’s going to be real. Yeah. You can’t do it over email. And that’s a tough move. That’s a badass move.
Bert Martinez:
How and what are your favorites? And one of the things that you caution in the book is why. Stay away from why. Why should we stay away from why? Why always has the impact of alleging a mistake.
Chris Voss :
Yes. Now, there’s intent and impact. Just because you didn’t intend for it to be that way doesn’t mean it doesn’t have that impact. I first started noticing that when I’m working kidnappings, literally all over the world and any time if somebody negotiated on behalf of the hostages would inadvertently use the word why, the other side would go through the roof every single time. So we started digging into it and realized that worldwide when you’re little, the first mistake you make, you break something, the adult nearby points and says, why did you do that? Right. So you begin— every human being starts to get conditioned from a very young age that if somebody’s asking them why, they just made a mistake. They might not know what it is.
Bert Martinez:
And this is global.
Chris Voss :
Globally. This is, this is human nature. This is a global affliction. And so people say, well, you know, I ask why all the time. I know Simon Sinek, find out their why.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
Finding out the why and asking why, two different things. Yes.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
And, and then people say, well, you know, I ask why all the time when I’m just curious. And I’ll say, yeah, but anybody that you’re around, if you think they made a mistake, you always ask them, why did they do that? Yes. So you’re inadvertently reinforcing this. 50% of the time you ask the question why, you think somebody screwed up.
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
And so— and I don’t even— that’s a very high percentage of the time. Like 1 time out of 10 would be enough to make people scared of the word. But so everybody, if I ask you why, you know, if I were to— I got a group of executives together one time. I look around the room and I pick out the biggest, you know, biggest sort of most potentially physically dangerous dude in the room. He hasn’t got a jacket on. Everybody else got a jacket on. I say, well, let me give you an example. And I look at him and the nicest voice I could think of, I said, you know, why aren’t you wearing a jacket? And he was kind of like, It’s hot in here.
Chris Voss :
And I go, did you guys all see his reaction? He changed the tone of voice, his body language. It was defensive. And I said, all right, so what made you choose not to wear a jacket? And I said, that landed differently. He goes like, yeah, you know, it did. And I said, because when I asked him why— and, you know, the adult language, which I think we can use occasionally here.
Bert Martinez:
Sure.
Chris Voss :
I says, inside he was saying like, what the fuck’s it to you?
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
And when I said that, he says, that’s exactly what I was thinking. And which I thought was funny because he backed up my point. You know, I passed him later on the hall and this was a big dude. And so I’m glad that— and then I said to him, like, it seems like you had a reason for not wearing a jacket. And I said, that impacted you yet another way, didn’t it? He goes like, yeah. So I just took you through 3 different emotional moments, bang, bang, bang, just on my choice of words. So We inadvertently ask why all the time, and we unintentionally create distance between ourselves and others all the time. And if you could just go from why to what, you’ve automatically taken this thing out.
Chris Voss :
Yes. And then if you’re really good, you know how to flip back and forth between calibrated questions and labels. And based on time of day and the thoughts that I’m trying to shape in your head, Then I’ll make a choice between those two.
Bert Martinez:
I love that. Yeah, that’s that. When I started switching over to what instead of why, it was a little awkward because why just— it’s so comfortable. We grew up with it.
Chris Voss :
Yep.
Bert Martinez:
And I use it quite frequently now. It’s now kind of second nature to say, what motivated you to do that?
Chris Voss :
And you get an answer.
Bert Martinez:
You get an answer. And they’re not like you said, they’re not pissed at you or, or trying to hide or something. They just said, well, I was thinking this or that or the other thing, right?
Chris Voss :
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that’s—
Bert Martinez:
and if they’ve done wrong, you want to know what they’re thinking was, right?
Chris Voss :
You’re interested in a thought pattern. Maybe there’s something in there that could enlighten you, or maybe you can isolate where their thinking went wrong. That helps you diagnose if you’re mentoring them them, helping them get better where the breakdown in their thinking was.
Bert Martinez:
Absolutely. And sometimes if you’re coming from a place of curiosity, then maybe you by accident discover that what they did or how it— how their thinking got them there might actually change something that helps your company or makes your system better or faster or whatever. So it’s great. What is so much better? I want to talk about— you already hit labeling. You mentioned labeling. Explain to the audience, what is labeling?
Chris Voss :
An essential label starts— it’s a verbal observation of emotion or dynamic or an affect. And what do I mean by affect? A look on your face. Like a label would be, it seems like something just crossed your mind, as opposed to what are you thinking?
Bert Martinez:
Yes.
Chris Voss :
Now, the label is more likely to get an answer, or seems like you’re uncomfortable with that. Seems like, sounds like, looks like, feels like are the beginning words to label, to put a verbal observation onto what you’re seeing. It’s also a very safe thing to do. I could say you sound angry. I’m not angry. I didn’t say you were angry. I said, you sound angry because the observation is just my observation. It’s not an accusation.
Chris Voss :
My observation could be wrong. It shows that you’re open to correction. Labels tend to get people thinking even if they hear a label. Like, I’ll have my team together and we’ll be talking and they’ll ask me a pointed question and I’ll say, all right, turn that into a label. And then they’ll think. And as they label, they’ll come up with the answer themselves. Or when they label, somebody else that heard the label will come up with an answer. Because it’s really the essence of listening.
Chris Voss :
Sorry. Listening versus hearing. Listening is analyzing. Hearing is, you know, you can repeat back the words. I heard what you said. Yeah, but you didn’t have any understanding of what I meant. Meant, right? So label is an analytical tool, and to label, I’ve got to analyze. And because I’m starting to analyze, I’m going to kick your analytical brain into gear also.
Chris Voss :
And then it’s actually a great stimulator of thinking collectively and collaboratively. And it— people respond to labels when they’re tired. And even a great question when you’re tired is hard to answer because you burn up a lot of mental wattage. Yes. With in-depth thinking, whereas labeling tends to just get straight, unvarnished thoughts out of somebody’s head. So the labeling, like on my team, most of us can get through an entire negotiation only labeling.
Bert Martinez:
Really?
Chris Voss :
And we find that the two bread and butter skills in the Black Swan Method are principally labels and mirrors. And all the other skills are a combination or derived from those. Labeling focuses mostly on dynamics and analysis, clues. Mirrors are just a word, repeating the last three words of what somebody said. Now, it’s kind of like right-handed, left-handed. Either you’re really good with one or the other. You’re going to have a preference. Most people lean in the direction of labels.
Chris Voss :
Sorry. Most people are right-handed. Some people really like mirrors, and all they’ll do is mirror. But because they like it and their tone of voice always indicates either curiosity or confirmation, They’re listening intently. One of the founders of a company that I’m advisor on, Even Up Law, Ray, Ray’s a mirror guy. Like he’ll, he closes deals right and left by mirroring because he listens really well. You know, he kind of smells where the issues are, where the deal is, and that’ll guide what he mirrors. And mirrors unearth things in an extremely efficient way.
Chris Voss :
Mirrors are just— I got to say 2 or 3 words every little while and I can excavate the entire deal.
Bert Martinez:
Wow.
Chris Voss :
My tendency— I happen to be more of a labeler. I use mirrors when I get backed into a corner. Ray is a mirror guy. And he uses a ton of mirrors. And another guy that we were coaching for a long time, Randy. Randy loved mirrors because they’re so efficient, right? Like, you don’t burn any mental wattage with mirrors, which then saves all this mental wattage for analyzing what you’re hearing or smelling a deal or excavating it. And Randy, before going to negotiation, He’d say, we’re going to go into this negotiation. Watch me.
Chris Voss :
The only thing I’m going to do the entire 90 minutes we’re together is mirror. Nothing’s coming out of my mouth other than a mirror.
Bert Martinez:
Wow.
Chris Voss :
Because he liked to show off to his team.
Bert Martinez:
Right, right.
Chris Voss :
And so they go through a 90-minute deal and all he’d do was mirror and they get the deal. Or one time he told me he realized there was no deal to be had before anybody on his team did.. And he could tell from the vibe on his team they thought they were still in the game, and he knew there was no deal. So he mirrored to wake his team up, because what he smelled, what the problems were, the deal was, then he would go in there and mirror that. And what got unearthed and excavated, then he saw the light bulbs go on over the heads of his whole team, because he wants to get out of there, but he doesn’t want to drag— he doesn’t want them to be drug out of the room going, wait, wait, wait, you know, we’re still talking. Yeah. He needed them to wake up that we got to get out of here, wasting our time. So he used mirrors to wake his own team up.
Bert Martinez:
That’s incredible. And so mirrors are basically, like you said, the last 2 or 3 words, right? And labeling again, you’re putting a label on, on something you see or hear. Yeah. And one of the things that I love in the book is Purposefully or intentionally mislabeling somebody?
Chris Voss :
Every now and then. And so that takes the pressure off of your mirror having to be accurate, or your label having to be accurate, because there’s no downside for mislabeling. As a matter of fact, you get a lot more information occasionally when you mislabel, and you may intentionally occasionally, occasionally use a mislabel to unearth the truth faster. Because when you mislabel, the other side’s response is to correct you. And the emotional satisfaction of correction overrides whether or not you should be sharing the information. Because the old phrase, people don’t remember what was said, they remember how they felt in the moment, right? There’s very few things in life that people find more satisfying than correcting. Yeah, it’s human nature. I just feel so good when I correct you.
Chris Voss :
So you correct me with something you never should have told me And I need you to never regret telling me, which is why I’d rather have you tell me as a result of a correction than a question.
Bert Martinez:
That’s so smart. Yes. In the book, there’s a story. And so the story is basically these guys, I think, had robbed a bogeyman. Bodega.
Chris Voss :
What is it?
Bert Martinez:
Bodega. Bodega. Thank you.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. You’re not from New York.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, well, I actually lived in New York for about a year there in Manhattan, but all of a sudden I couldn’t say that word. English is my second language, and sometimes my lips wear out. I don’t know what to tell you.
Chris Voss :
When I read, my lips get tired. Yeah, there you go.
Bert Martinez:
And so these guys, I think, had robbed Bodega and they had gotten up to their apartment and you were just out in the hallway. You and your team were out in the hallway for like all day, basically just sitting there saying, hey, you know, you don’t want to go back to jail or you don’t want to get hurt or you don’t— you basically just sat there for hours repeating the same things over and over again. But that wasn’t really— it’s not a mirror because obviously they weren’t conversing with you. Were you labeling at that point? What was the story? What was—
Chris Voss :
well, it was mostly you were using a late-night FM DJ.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
That’s right. Which is very reassuring. And we’re imagining what they’re going through. It was labeling. We’re imagining what they’re going through and we’re just laying it out there.
Bert Martinez:
Right. For hours, though.
Chris Voss :
For hours.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Voss :
We were there for 6 solid hours. Not a word on the inside. Not one word. And also through the process, we’re indicating to them we want them to come out unharmed. And so then I would talk to him for a long time and I hand the negotiations off and I’d say, look, like, we’re not going anywhere. And to prove to you that I’m not going anywhere, you know, I’m going to hand this off to my colleague because we’re not going anywhere. And they get on and they step up and talk. And then I come back and step up and talk.
Chris Voss :
And hour after hour after hour, like, we’re not going anywhere. Nowhere. But not a threatening voice, just like a soothing— this is the sun’s coming up tomorrow, right?
Bert Martinez:
Hello, this is Barry White, and we’re not gonna—
Chris Voss :
we’re not going anywhere. And I described in excruciating detail what a safe surrender would look like. Oh, okay. So many times, vision drives decision. Yes. I over and over again put a vision of explicitly how they come out of there without getting hurt. And so bang, after about 6 hours, a door opened up and a first person came out, like inch by inch, exactly as I’ve been describing it for hours. Never said a word.
Chris Voss :
Wow. Never said a word. Second person came out same way. Never said one single word because I was just reassuring there with the voice, which is confidence, calmness. You can take what I am saying to the bank. Here’s how it’s going to look when you come out of there unharmed. And they came out.
Bert Martinez:
Wow. So here you are, you’re doing this for, like you said, 5, 6, 7 hours, whatever. Was there ever a doubt that that this is working, it’s not working, are they even there, have they left?
Chris Voss :
No, I don’t think they were there. Okay. You know, it comes a point in time in every hostage negotiator’s life when they’re going to talk to what we refer to as a dry hole. Okay. Ain’t nobody inside. You’ve been talking for hours. And I had already done that a couple of times. I was in charge of the negotiation team by that point in time.
Chris Voss :
And I had talked to a dry hole a couple of months earlier. And the SWAT guys on the outside said like, look, dude, I’d have come out if I was inside. And enough time went by that, you know, we finally went in. There was nobody in the house. So I just figured it was a rite of passage for the negotiators that I was with. Okay. Yeah. And I’m like, you got to do this.
Chris Voss :
You got to be willing to talk to a door that doesn’t talk back for hours. And this is how you do it.. And we were out there for 6 hours. And at that point in time, again, one SWAT guy said to me, like, dude, I’d have come out if I was inside. And we know— and I was, I was sure no one was inside. But a spotter, sniper spotter on an adjacent rooftop saw the curtain move on the inside. And I like, bang, it was like getting hit with an electric shock because you jolted. And that’s when I said, you know, we got spotters on adjacent roofs and we just saw a curtain move.
Chris Voss :
I know you’re in there. And I’ve been here for 6 hours saying I’m not going anywhere. And it wasn’t long after that that they came out.
Bert Martinez:
That’s a great story. Great training for the, for the new guys. I want to talk about the F-word. Fair.
Chris Voss :
Fair.
Bert Martinez:
Which has been used on me. I’ve used it. You know, it’s just again, it’s as common as why. I just want to be fair. Yeah. I just want a fair deal. Yeah. It is.
Bert Martinez:
I want to say it has to be right up there with why as far as really kind of getting—
Chris Voss :
Triggering emotions.
Bert Martinez:
Yes. Yep. And I like in the book you give 3 ways of using fear. Yeah. Talk about the 3 ways to use fear.
Chris Voss :
Well, you know, you’re going to use it when you’re backed into a corner. You don’t know why. That’s the most common usage of it. Now, you can use it to intentionally destabilize somebody. And the Cutthroats learned that early on. And the real issue with fairness is the other side has no criteria to back up what they’re saying, because if they were, they’d use it, right? And so you have to recognize in the moment, you got to diagnose, are they trying to knock me off guard Do they feel incredibly vulnerable at this point in time? Whichever one it is, I’m proceeding with a different strategy. I want to— if they’re trying to knock me off guard, right? But they still feel vulnerable, so that doesn’t mean that you still shouldn’t be cautious. But I got to get a diagnosis of which one it is for sure.
Chris Voss :
Sure, because that’s going to tell me— it’s really going to inform me more as to the long-term relationship. And so I might say, seem like you have a reason for saying that, because in either way, whichever one you are, you’re not going to feel attacked, right? Now, they might be just testing you. They might be trying to knock you off guard. A lot of negotiations are testing you. I, you know, I got to challenge you over the price, and I got to push you to see if you can stand your ground. So, and it may seem like you had a reason for saying, like, ah, nah, just trying to get a better price. Okay, cool. You know, you called the other side out without making them feel called out, right? Or if they’re emotionally vulnerable, they’re backed into a corner, they’ll be like, ah, and you make them aware without making them feel attacked.
Chris Voss :
And then you’re going to proceed also. So when somebody drops the F-bomb, which comes up in every negotiation. Like, you are not going to find a point in time when the F-bomb is not going to get dropped by somebody. Right now, you got to know where you are with them and who you’re dealing with to proceed intelligently.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, I like the fact that, again, you go through a lot more detail in the book. And that, to your point about somebody might be using it just to rattle you, knock you off your guard or whatever. And in the book, you also talk about sometimes people will give you— you call it bending reality, where they’ll just drop a crazy price on you to see, again, to knock you off your guard and see what happens.
Chris Voss :
Right.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah.
Chris Voss :
Yeah. Well, the fear of loss, bending reality, setting parameters. You know, there’s a lot of interesting strategies on that. And extreme anchors are not something that we advocate because you drive deals from the table. Yeah, you, you, you cause yourself to not make a deal with somebody that you should have made the deal with. Now, what I want to know is, is there a good deal to be had here? So I’m not going to come up with a crazy number to drive you from the table because I don’t know how you’re going to react. And so many people will come into us with extreme anchors And I’m out. I mean, I am out.
Bert Martinez:
When you say you’re out, you’re like you’re saying, okay, you hang up on them or you—
Chris Voss :
Yeah, we’re done. Just darn near hanging up. You know, I’m going to— I’m going to— the last impression is a lasting impression. So I’m going to exit as quickly as I possibly can in a way that feels respectful and open to collaboration. Gotcha. But I’m out as quick as I can. Now, if I, if I, if I, if I feel that you’re intentionally trying to exploit me, then I really don’t care how— whether or not your feelings are singed by me just ghosting you. Right.
Chris Voss :
But I’m out. And just the really seasoned negotiators hate driving deals from the table that they should have made. And long-term people, the champions, without question, want to explore the space as opposed to knocking you off guard and exploiting you. Yes.
Bert Martinez:
One of the things that I’ve learned, and I think you hit upon it in the book a little bit, but I’ve seen this just from my own observations, that the US, the way we are taught for the most part in the US to negotiate versus, let’s say, the Chinese, the way they negotiate, And I think in the book, you mentioned something and correct me if I’m wrong, maybe it’s a different book, but I think the US and the Chinese were coming together to negotiate a deal and like the Chinese had booked a hotel for like 2 or 3 weeks and the US counterparts had booked it for like 2 or 3 days. And again, I think that’s cultural, right? It’s just the way, you know, these guys, the Chinese just negotiate differently. But it seems like we can learn something from trying to understand these different cultures.
Chris Voss :
Well, empathy is about understanding the other side to begin with. That’s why it’s applicable to everybody.
Bert Martinez:
Everybody.
Chris Voss :
It’s applicable to the Chinese. It’s applicable to the Japanese. It’s applicable to the Italians. It’s applicable to Russians. It’s applicable to the Colombians. Right. Because there’s an underlying basis. No matter what culture you’re from, you are human to start with.
Chris Voss :
Right now, you get into trouble in cross-cultural negotiations when you think that your culture is right. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah, that’s when you get into trouble. This is the way it’s done. You know, this is— I’m, you know, I’m going to do it like this because that’s, that’s where we do it, where I come from. Right. That’s when you get into trouble. But another guy we’re giving a Global Negotiation Award to has negotiated commercial real estate deals all across Europe using our methodology.
Chris Voss :
And if these commercial real estate deals— England, Italy, Holland, France, Germany—
Bert Martinez:
same approach.
Chris Voss :
Wow. Because they’re all human, right? And if nothing else, Western Europe with the variety of countries, all of Europe, and languages. I’m at a conference of self-described negotiation experts in Switzerland, probably about 2 years ago. One guy’s a cross-cultural negotiation expert, and he’s looking at me, he says, you got to understand that Germans are different from the Italians, are different from the French, are different from the English. And he can see from the look on my face that I’m not buying it, right? And finally says to me, Look, they all just want to know that you know where they’re coming from.
Bert Martinez:
I’m like, bang, empathy. I do want to hit upon this since we’re talking about cultural differences in negotiations. It’s something that I’ve said many times prior to reading the book. And of course, in the book, you mentioned it as well, is that the US has this policy of not negotiating with terrorists, whatever you want to call a terrorist. But, you know, I’m talking Taliban or ISIS for this example. And in the book, you know, you use the example that Hillary Clinton at one point said, we need to understand these people so we can figure out how to work with them or something like that. I forgot exactly what she said.
Chris Voss :
She used the word empathy.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. And of course, you know, everybody jumps on her and It’s weak. It’s weak. And, you know, she’s joined the Brotherhood and all that other good stuff. But I think that’s so true. How, you know, the book also covers about when you think somebody’s crazy, that’s when you really need to, you know, take a deep down and understand, try to, try to understand them deep down because they’re not crazy. They’re, you know, they’re only crazy to you, right? And so, yeah, I think that this idea of trying not to understand these people who, first of all, may look crazy to us, sound crazy to us, and obviously want to hurt us, we’re doing ourselves a big disservice.
Chris Voss :
Yes, 1,000%. The real power from empathy comes from divorcing it from agreement. Yes. And if it’s just understanding, then it becomes a universally applicable skill because every human Every human, including sociopaths or whatever disorder that they may or may not have, they want to be understood, right? And every human has neurochemicals. Every human has oxytocin, serotonin, all those neurochemicals. And all those neurochemicals have the same impact on every human’s brain, period. No matter what— they’re autistic, they’re on the spectrum, They’re sociopathic, they’re psychopathic. They, they are absent certain feelings, but they still have the neurochemicals and the base layer of emotions, which is a lot of discussion over what that base layer is.
Chris Voss :
But of the scientists that are out there, they either say, I don’t agree with your base layer, or you can’t prove it. Which doesn’t mean it ain’t there, right? It’s a little bit like the existence of God. I’m listening to— I can’t remember who was interviewed on Huberman and Andrew’s podcast. Andrew’s a friend and a brilliant dude and a great person. And the guy says, look, the existence of God is not a scientific question because you can’t run a controlled experiment. Right, right. Anything you can run a controlled experiment, you can control variables. Now you can run a— you got a scientific question, right? So anybody’s trying to prove or disprove God doesn’t understand science because you can’t isolate the variables.
Chris Voss :
And so whether or not humans have a base layer of emotions, you can’t isolate the variable. You can’t give the infant in a womb a questionnaire. Here you go. Yeah, you can’t, you can’t put an fMRI before they’re born. Right. And so you just— it’s a hypothesis that either you’re, you know, as a layman, I can buy into it because I’m not a scientist. Right. I don’t, I don’t need to have scientifically rigorous data to back up what I’m saying.
Chris Voss :
I can say this is my observation. I got enough of a track record. Me and my team, we got enough of a track record that, yeah, if we’re proposing this as a potential hypothesis, then there’s a pretty good chance that we’re on the right track. And like, and then you look at, look at a newborn infant looking up at his mother’s eyes. Now, mom’s got oxytocin bonding going crazy, right? But every picture of a newborn infant looking up his mom, the kid is usually kind of going like, huh, huh, you know, you look nice. Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Huh.
Chris Voss :
This is interesting. And if you could read their mind, like I was imagining kids saying like, You have any idea what I’ve been through over the last half hour?
Bert Martinez:
I’m still tired from the move, right?
Chris Voss :
Well, I see this one video, you know, trying to— what are the base layer of emotions? I’m— among them was, uh, surprise, disgust. They haven’t listed curiosity, but I think curiosity is there. And there’s this video of this infant, and they’ve handed the kid one of those really pungent, um, uh, fruits. Okay, the green one. Uh, I eat it all the time. Green citrus. I can’t think of what it’s called. Super healthy for you.
Bert Martinez:
Kiwi.
Chris Voss :
Kiwi. It’s kiwi. So the kid’s got a kiwi in his hand. He’s kind of looking at the kiwi like, hmm. And then he puts it in his mouth and it just goes, wow, wow, wow. And he gets over it and looks back at it and kind of goes, hmm, again and tastes it again. And I’m like, you can’t tell me that curiosity is not there from get-go.
Bert Martinez:
Right.
Chris Voss :
Because this kid’s deeply curious and like, that’s That thing was awful. Let me try it again.
Bert Martinez:
One of the biggest surprises I got from the book is that the FBI employs a team of people to listen. Oh yeah. This blew me away. However, we started doing the same thing. We don’t— can’t afford a team of, you know, 5 people or specialists or whatever. But this is what we started doing and it’s been a big game changer. And that is we, we record the negotiations, right? Then we have it transcribed. We have it analyzed now by AI.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. And we tell— we’ll tell our AI to go through there and, and pick out what we’re looking for. Where can we be? Where could we have been more empathetic? Were we not empathetic? You know, what’s the underlying message? Things of that nature. And it’s been a huge game changer because when you are in the going back and forth in a negotiation, it’s hard to take all that in.
Chris Voss :
It’s impossible. It’s what, you know, if you give me a team of 5 to 7 people and we structure it, we might catch it all. That’s incredible. But I love your approach because these moments are going to come around again. Yes. And so then if you’ve done that analysis to gain insight, now when you come back for round 2 with insight, you got it. You got a completely different negotiation. That’s brilliant.
Bert Martinez:
I love it. Thank you. It’s been a huge game changer. Not only can— do we have that transcript, but then we can also see when we’re not using all the tools because again, we forget, right? We forget that, hey, it sounds like, seems like, whatever feels like or whatever, all the different things that we talked about today, mirroring or labeling or stuff like that. It, again, when you’re in the middle of it, it’s, you know, you don’t, you don’t sometimes get all of them. And so that’s been a big game changer. But that was such a big aha that here’s the FBI and you guys literally use a friggin team of people just to catch, trying to catch it all. And I think it was The guy who held up the Capitol, right? Not the Capitol, but the—
Chris Voss :
what do you call it? Oh, yeah.
Bert Martinez:
Dwight Watson. Dwight Watson, farmer, tobacco farmer. Yeah. And one of your teammates figured out that he was using this born-again type of—
Chris Voss :
She heard an undertone of religious Christian dedication. He was on the surface. He talked about being in the military all the time, 82nd Airborne. And, you know, on the surface, he’s a proud American, right? Very proud American. And who felt backed into a corner. You know, when he went into the reflecting pond in the middle of D.C., he had a U.S. flag upside down, which is an American in distress. And he’s signaling all this stuff, very military, very patriotic.
Chris Voss :
And she heard underneath Occasionally here and there, there was this— there was this deep Christian born-again conviction, and we used that to be a breakthrough with getting him to come out. Yes.
Bert Martinez:
And that to me is incredible, because if it wasn’t for that teammate who heard those undertones, it might have lasted another couple of days or whatever. Or he might have got killed. Yeah, the guy could have been—
Chris Voss :
because as time went on, he gets more tired, and there were rules of engagement. Like, we’re trying real hard not to kill this guy. And the more tired you are, the more likely you are to make a decision that’s going to lead to your demise. But there was legitimate reason. There was more than reasonable suspicion that there were explosives there and that there was imminent harm to everybody even close by with the potential explosives that he talked about having. So we wanted to get him out of there before he melted down and accidentally got himself killed.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah. Yes. Because people don’t always see— think about that, that you guys are willing to take a life, but, you know, you’re not trying to take a life.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, exactly. You know, yeah, you’re doing, doing, doing everything you can do because it’s irreversible. Like, even if, even if it’s a legally justifiable move, it may still be a tough, tough one morally. Right. You know, I don’t, I don’t know that it’s ever not. Tough, right? Morally. And that’s why there are a lot of police shootings that were taken to trial are 1,000% justified shootings. But it just feels bad.
Chris Voss :
It went down. A community doesn’t want that. You know, they want— they don’t want you to shoot everybody that you can. Right. Right. You know, they want you to do everything you can to avoid using this deadly force which is conferred upon law enforcement, they want you to be respectful of the enormity of that power. Yeah. So, yeah, not taking a life is, uh, is an important decision to make.
Bert Martinez:
Absolutely. I want to talk about this real quick. Uh, I think it’s the word that most, most of us fear. No, right? And, and you mentioned Jim Camp in your book, uh, and And again, this is one of my favorite parts of the book. There’s just so many of them, as you guys keep hearing me say. But no, for so many years is like such a mind trap, right? Oh, we try to avoid it. And then the example that you gave in there just changed my whole mindset on it. And that is our kids do that to us all the time.
Bert Martinez:
You tell your kids no because you want that control, that comfort, that protection. And then now you kind of Relax and you’re kind of okay. You’re willing to listen.
Chris Voss :
Yeah.
Bert Martinez:
And this, I think, just teaching people on how to deal with no and how to really like the word no, because it’s really, as you mentioned in the book, no is not the end. It’s the beginning of the negotiations.
Chris Voss :
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a difference between saying it and hearing it. And if you understand how saying it makes people feel safe, because I started— you start to put together ideas from different spots. And so as a parent, Dad, can I? No. Now you’re willing to listen, right? Lieutenant on a police department, NYPD, once said to me, you know, Chris, lieutenant’s job is to say no. And I remember at the time kind of being insulted by that because I thought Dude, you’re not a leader, right? If you think your job is to say no to your guys, then you— I don’t know, you’re mentoring and growing these guys.
Chris Voss :
And I was a little offended about how good it made him feel. And then I started putting it together and I’m like, there’s tremendous power in making somebody feel that way. Yes. It’s again gaining the upper hand, right? Why? They feel large and in charge. Suddenly they’re open, they feel safe and protected. And so then the flip side is saying yes feels like a trap. And there is a very specific sales technique where it is a trap. Yes, the yes momentum.
Chris Voss :
Every yes is a micro-agreement or a tie-down. So the big yes is the trap that you walk them into. Right. So these two words, they’re like polar opposites on a magnet. You know, one repels, the other attracts. And you try to get me to say yes, I’m instantly— my guard’s going up because I’ve been trapped. I’ve been walked into that bear trap a whole bunch of times. And so how do I avoid the bear trap? I say no.
Chris Voss :
And I feel good when I say no. And I relax and my vision isn’t clouded and I’m willing to listen. So we’ve just turned, we take Jim’s idea of letting people feel it’s okay to say no to the next level of triggering the emotional reaction when they do say no. And one of the CEOs of a company we’re doing training for. They took their close questions from yes questions to no questions. Their close rate was 12% and their close rate became 60%. That’s incredible.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, I love that. We try to use no questions all the time. Yeah, because exactly what you said, it first of all throws them off and they’re, they’re just like, they’re so happy to say no and it kind of, you can definitely see them relax. And it also, I think it speeds up the whole trust. Yep. And so no is such an effective tool that again, if you guys haven’t gotten the book or if you’ve only read it once or twice, you need to really just sit down there and go through the no chapters. And let me ask you this, because I know you have the Black Swan Group Right. And you guys do all sorts of training.
Bert Martinez:
So if, if, if I— do you guys have like public trainings? Talk about your trainings a little bit and how people can get involved with your organization.
Chris Voss :
Well, we got it at every level. Okay. And we have the Black Swan Negotiation Community, which if you just go to our website, you can join the community and you can start getting involved. You can exercise, you can role play, you start to get some learning from other people. That are learning, let’s say you got no money. Negotiation community costs you nothing. You’re flipping burgers at McDonald’s, you know, whatever you’re doing, you’re living hand to mouth. You need to start getting yourself some space.
Chris Voss :
There are some people that can’t afford to go to the summit. Right. Now, last year, the summit tickets are about $3,500 each. Over $100 million in transactions were consummated at the summit last year. Wow. Like, we’ve got this summit designed for you to come and close your most difficult deal that you should close, right? That you should close. There are a lot of deals you shouldn’t close. We want to put you in a quick diagnosis of those you should close, and we’re going to give you the tools to close them in the 2 days that you were there.
Chris Voss :
And if you got the money on it, if you got, you know, if what’s at stake for you is worth it, Most people make 10 times the, the fee for being there in the 2 days, let alone where it takes you in the coming year. But you’re not ready for that yet. Join a community, start getting some, some repetitions in, learn from people that are doing the same thing that you’re doing. Now we got online training. We have a no-oriented question PDF. Nice. Your 10 most common yes questions We’ll script them into no questions for you. Go to the community and ask for the no-oriented questions PDF.
Chris Voss :
Start to give yourself some acceleration right now. Put yourself in a position where if you can’t come to the summit this year, if you use the skills over the coming year, ticket to the summit’s going to be nothing for you over the coming year. You’re going to, you’re going to make, you’re going to make your money easily in the first couple months. You’re going to, you’re going to get a raise, you’re going to get a better job. You’re going to have a better outcome. People are making life-changing deals with our stuff on a regular basis. You want some online training? We have online training. We’ve limited— our 2-day is the most impactful training we could give you.
Chris Voss :
Here’s why. Your brain encodes learning while you’re asleep if you’re getting ready to use it the next day. That’s why when you sleep on a problem that you can’t— you’re grappling with, when you wake up, bang, there’s a large number of times you got the answer, right? Because you were working on it the day before. Your brain does amazing mystical things while you’re asleep, and you wake up with enlightenment. The 2-day training does that. You come to one of our 1-day trainings Maybe you go on vacation the next day. You know, we got a, we got a one day in Orlando. Well, maybe you go hang out at Disney World after, after the training, which is a cool thing to do, right? But the two days is going to bake it into you in a way that you effectively can get six months worth of learning in two days if it’s two consecutive days and your brain has to be ready to go the following morning.
Chris Voss :
Which is why we’re going to set you into one of your most important negotiations. In day 1, we’re going to get you thinking. We’re going to give you tools. We’re going to give you practice. You’re going to get a choice of what breakout you want to go to, to prep. Your brain is going to go to work on it for you while you’re asleep. It’s going to bake in the training. There’s— it’s one of the things I learned from Andrew on one of his podcasts.
Chris Voss :
There’s baking in of learning that only takes place while you’re asleep. And then you get up the next morning, you’re ready to rock. You’re going to finish that deal out. So, but wherever you are, maybe, maybe you don’t have time to get to the training in Dallas this year. You want to, you want to put yourself in a position next year to close a $15, $20, $25 million deal over the coming year. Start by joining the community. That’s great. And Black Swan.
Chris Voss :
Yeah, thanks. Thank you. BlackSwanLTD.com is a website. BlackSwanLTD.com. That’ll take you to the website. Look around a little bit. Right away, we’re going to try to get you to sign up for the training or our training or the summit. Look for the community, sign up for the community, start making a difference in your life right now.
Bert Martinez:
Yeah, that’s incredible. Uh, and so you mentioned Dallas, I think you mentioned Orlando. So you have them all over the place. Do they move around or are they constantly in these cities?
Chris Voss :
We’re going to, we’re going to do in the coming year, our annual summit is probably going to be— we’re probably going to stick to Dallas because it’s a good central location for the U.S. We’re going to start to do this coming year, we’re going to do a 1-day advanced skills trainings. I think we’re going to do them all in Las Vegas where I live. Right, right. Because it’s going to cut down on some of our logistics and then whatever your recreation is. Vegas is a great place to play golf. It is if you’re into golf. There’s shows, there’s non-gambling phenomenal entertainment, right? Comedy, art museums, there’s different Cirque du Soleil shows.
Chris Voss :
Yes, you could drive dune buggies in the desert, you can hike in the mountains. You got the places that will rent you the machine guns that you can shoot. Yeah, my buddy runs of Shooting Range Machine Guns Vegas. Yes. You know, Tim’s, Tim’s shooting range, a great place to go shoot machine guns.
Bert Martinez:
Yes, it’s awesome. All right. So you named, you named the company Black Swan.
Chris Voss :
Why? Because it’s the little things that change everything.
Bert Martinez:
So how do I uncover a black swan?
Chris Voss :
Well, first of all, you got to accept they’re always there.
Bert Martinez:
Okay.
Chris Voss :
Always there, no matter what. I can intellectually lay it out for you. There’s some people that I know what it is. I don’t get surprised. Well, you got— you’re narrow-minded, right? The reason there’s always some black swans there is because in every negotiation you’re holding stuff back. Sure. You’re holding back your deadlines, your pressures. What could— you’re holding back what could hurt you.
Chris Voss :
So going back to what we talked about earlier, anything that could inflict— could tremendously hurt you also could tremendously help if you could trust the other side. You feel vulnerable, right?
Bert Martinez:
You’re scared. Yeah. Because if you’re going through a divorce and that’s affecting you, you don’t want to talk about that during a negotiation, right?
Chris Voss :
Or whatever it is. Your boss yelled at you. You got a quarterly deadline. You’re trying to make your bonus or you’re on easy street. You don’t care anymore, right? There’s never not information that’s hidden. And I’m not sure I said that right, but you get the idea. Yeah. Yeah, there’s never— and so then both sides have that.
Chris Voss :
Absolutely. And then the hardest thing to wrap your mind around is what’s in the overlap. And so there’s always a black swan. There’s always something tiny and innocuous that if shared would change everything. And the fact that it’s innocuous is another key issue because You’re only going to have tells when you’re hiding information you know is important. But since you don’t have the full extent of what’s important to me, you won’t have tells on the innocuous information, right? Because to you it’s meaningless. So if I’m only looking for tells, I’m probably only picking up half the important information. I got to start exploring the space to get you to bring something up that you think had nothing to do with the circumstances, and suddenly it does, right? But if I’m looking for tells, you, you know, the tells are never going to give that.
Chris Voss :
In poker, poker tell is when you’re hiding a card or you’re hiding a bluff, but you’re intentionally hiding, right? The vast majority of the important information is innocuous. So you’re not going to know to have a tell. And it’s sort of mind-bending to try to wrap your brain around all that. But another guy we’re giving the award to, he says— an attorney— he says, now I’d love— because I’m looking for the mutual aha moments. I want both of us to have an aha, not aha, right? But Aha! Wow! Yeah, now I know that everything changes, right? Which also then makes the process delightful because you’re looking for these delightful discoveries. Then the other side is no longer an adversary. Now they’re experiencing it with you, and then you begin to make— you begin to make great deals. This guy’s an attorney.
Chris Voss :
He’s getting ready to go to trial on a case. He reaches out for the other side with the accusations audit over the weekend, and they avoid going to trial. Wow. They’re going to trial Monday, and he just changes his attitude. Accusations audit is basically self-effacing approach and then looking for the ahas. And now they’re into a collaborative negotiation. Saving everybody a massive amount of money. Right.
Bert Martinez:
And the risk, because the risk— you think you have a winning case and the jury or the judge doesn’t think so, doesn’t think it’s worth as much as you thought it did. And so 90% of attorneys like to avoid those trials because they’re still iffy.
Chris Voss :
You never know what’s going to happen in the courtroom.
Bert Martinez:
Right, right.
Chris Voss :
Now, this award that you’re giving away is It’s basically all-star negotiation team for 2026. It’s a 10-year anniversary of the book. The book came out in 2016. Coincidentally, this coming— this year is a 10-year anniversary, right? And we’re like, who’s your— who are the all-stars? I mean, who’s just doing stuff people need to know? They’re all— they’re part of— they’re all-star negotiators, all-star global negotiators. And it just occurred to me that we’re as qualified as anybody, anybody to call that out. Like, I got a team of hostage negotiators. Our collective negotiation experience in hostage and business negotiation globally puts us up there with anybody. So I’m like, you know what? We got to recognize these people.
Chris Voss :
We’re getting Black Swan Global Negotiator Awards 2026.
Bert Martinez:
That’s incredible. Chris, it’s been an absolute blast. And the book again, Never Split the Difference. It’s an awesome— not just a book, it’s really an insight into human beings. It’s just a great resource. Anyway, thank you for stopping by.
Chris Voss :
The pleasure was mine. Thanks for having me in.
